Joined: 10 Aug 2006 {Posts: 110 } Location: Somewhere...
Posted: Sun 19 Oct 2008 09:37 Post subject:
Honestly, I can't say that I prefer either the U.S. or D.R. systems (if in fact that's what was provided). Honestly, to me, color/racial classifications aren't really positive or sufficient. Both systems seem focused on black/white (maybe some Amerindian). What about others?
How does one know my background by my color? It's impossible. By the "Dominican system", someone like Tiger Woods may be "black" when he is of African, Asian and European heritage. That doesn't seem much different from the U.S. What happens when you aren't "white," "black," or "mulatto." Where does some who is is quite dark and predominantly South Asian fit in for example? Think of the diversity among Pacific Islanders for example, what about them?
Personally, I prefer a system with options for ethnic background/heritage. Check all that apply or self-identify.
I prefer a system with options for ethnic background/heritage. Check all that apply or self-identify.
For years, the American Anthropological Associatio has advocated that approach, since it would yield useful data on ethnic self-identity. Unfortunately, Congress rejects it because, "The nation needs to find out what race its citizens are in order to fight discrimination."
Joined: 24 Sep 2008 {Posts: 102 } Location: Santiago, DR
Posted: Sun 19 Oct 2008 14:26 Post subject:
divana wrote:
How does one know my background by my color? It's impossible. By the "Dominican system", someone like Tiger Woods may be "black" when he is of African, Asian and European heritage.
You've misunderstood, Dominican's words to describe people's color don't imply an association with race like in the US.
Just like calling a car red or green has no special significance, neither does moreno, rubio, indio or blanco in Dominican Spanish.
Most Dominicans are more or less unaware of their racial heritage, and even if they are, don't pay special attention to it nor think it important. A byproduct of this "system" if you will, is an enormous amount of intermarrying, based on the American racial classification. No doubt this historical and constant mixing has arguably created some of the most attractive people on this planet.
Well if my personal experience resonates with a lot of other people I'd say (to the original question) give it another 100 years. There is a lot more acceptance towards the idea of mixed race people by all groups. It's just a matter of time until there are new racial classifications that update this trend and attitude.
Eventually because of the influx of slaves and also Haitians in later years and intermarrying the whites were relegated to a minority class.
How are whites a minority due to an "influx" of presumably African slaves and Haitians? Don't many genetically mixed people in the DR refer to themselves as whites?
If a racial classification system is fluid or has lost its meaning (another statement in your post) then on what basis are whites a minority?
Joined: 24 Sep 2008 {Posts: 102 } Location: Santiago, DR
Posted: Wed 22 Oct 2008 14:29 Post subject:
sagascend wrote:
chip wrote:
Eventually because of the influx of slaves and also Haitians in later years and intermarrying the whites were relegated to a minority class.
How are whites a minority due to an "influx" of presumably African slaves and Haitians? Don't many genetically mixed people in the DR refer to themselves as whites?
If a racial classification system is fluid or has lost its meaning (another statement in your post) then on what basis are whites a minority?
The Dominican system of color has effectively lost all racial significance. It can be difficult to try to understand this from a classical American point of view.
Eventually because of the influx of slaves and also Haitians in later years and intermarrying the whites were relegated to a minority class.
How are whites a minority due to an "influx" of presumably African slaves and Haitians? Don't many genetically mixed people in the DR refer to themselves as whites?
If a racial classification system is fluid or has lost its meaning (another statement in your post) then on what basis are whites a minority?
The Dominican system of color has effectively lost all racial significance. It can be difficult to try to understand this from a classical American point of view.
Yes, I quite understand the perspective. What I am trying to understand is the summary position in your statements: That a racial classification system can be meaningless one on hand and also maintain a white minority group based on appearance.
How do you explain extremely brown Dominicans who refer to themselves as whites? No "influx" of slaves or Haitians created that phenomenon. What are they identifying with if their appearance is "not white?"
I won't even get into the indio classification. That is another discussion.
Joined: 24 Sep 2008 {Posts: 102 } Location: Santiago, DR
Posted: Wed 22 Oct 2008 15:19 Post subject:
sagascend wrote:
How do you explain extremely brown Dominicans who refer to themselves as whites? No "influx" of slaves or Haitians created that phenomenon. What are they identifying with if their appearance is "not white?"
I don't know of any Dominicans that are extremely brown that call themselves blanco, at best they are caramel colored.
As far as the real penchant for Dominicans to favor lighter color and straight hair when in fact most of them are not fair nor have naturally straight hair this is somewhat complicated and often attributed to racism by people who don't live here nor understand the language nor culture.
I attribute most of this affinity as a rejection of most things "Haitian". What many people may not know is that that Haitians invaded and occupied the Dominican Republic for more than 20 years and committed atrocities (even before the invasion). As most of the invading Haitians at that time were I believe mostly African in decent and most Dominicans being of mixed decent this naturally became a way of distinguishing themselves as different from the Haitians.
While this may see outright racist, unlike in the US where white racists obviously wouldn't socialize nor intermarry with blacks, historically this hasn't been the case here in the DR. In fact "intermarrying", based on an American point of view, is very common and would be obvious to anyone who has spent any time here that there is little stigma associated with it.
In a nutshell, Dominicans have an dislike for most things Haitian, and therefore are going to give less favor to certain characteristics that most Haitians have (that have come in contact with Dominicans) like somewhat dark skin, curly hair, wide noses and big lips. Interestingly, many if not most Dominicans have at least a few if not all of the characteristics, thus these seemingly ironic and hypocritical opinions don't really match up with the reality of the situation. It should be noted too that "white" characteristics like small butts and thin lips are somewhat ridiculed as well.
The problem is further propagated by the continued remembrance of their independence from Haiti. To wit, children sing a very nationalistic national anthem and this is part of the reason the tradition of disliking Haitians continues to this day.
Furthermore, and certainly of equal importance it also doesn't help that Haiti has altogether been a disaster politics wise for so many years that they by far only send their most poor and destitute to the DR. Just like in most if not all countries that have significant immigration, the immigrants are also objects of dislike and blame. This is certainly exacerbated by the fact that it is estimated that illegal Haitian immigration in the DR account for 10% of the population. As the DR is an exceedingly poor country with few social services, you can imagine the strain this causes on relations.
I attribute most of this affinity as a rejection of most things "Haitian".
I agree. As a prerequisite for opining on DR colorism, I would ask that a person demonstrate working familiarity with the Hatian military occupation of 1821-1843. Whatever its reality (bloody and cruel to be sure), it lives on in Dominican folkloric tradition as horrible beyond imagining.
I don't know any Dominicans who refer to themselves as anything other than white when asked to self-identify. One is darker and more African looking than I am. Rather than assume that their perspectives represent a majority or minority view, obviously their existence means that whiteness in the DR is not always predicated on phenotype. Unless they are totally delusional, again based on the assertion that a strict appearance-based classification scheme applies in DR, their identification as whites is nonsensical.
Now what is true, in my experience, is that my Dominican friends resist racial classification based on an essential definition of their phenotypes. Perhaps it is based on their residence in the U.S, where the B/W dichotomy rules and irks the Carribean mindset. Perhaps it is an indication of their cultural orientation, or blanqueamiento.
You're not necessarily answering my questions, though. As a person of Haitian ancestry I certainly have my perspective on the history of Hispaniola, but I find it hard to believe that even the most one-sided analysis of racialism in the DR would gloss over the impact of European colonization as well as Trujillo's racial improvement programs. If the classification system in the DR is fluid and the cultural tenet of antihaitianismo paired with illegal immigration exists, then brown Dominicans who call themselves white would have to be identifying not with their appearance, but with something beyond their phenotype.
It might be popular to throw stones at Haiti in the DR on blackness, but seeing as how the nations share close quarters and the blending of African, European and Native occured on both sides of the border (where ever it was drawn at any given moment) the attribution of "blackness" to Haitian "influx" seems to be a direct result of social engineering and revisionist history.
Haitian immigrants are treated abominably and many darkskinned Dominicans or half-Haitians born in the DR on the border experience virulent racism because they are despised as "Haitians." Interestlingly enough, however, well-off Haitians vacation in the DR without hesitation.
Joined: 24 Sep 2008 {Posts: 102 } Location: Santiago, DR
Posted: Wed 22 Oct 2008 16:15 Post subject:
sagascend wrote:
If the classification system in the DR is fluid and the cultural tenet of antihaitianismo paired with illegal immigration exists, then brown Dominicans who call themselves white would have to be identifying not with their appearance, but with something beyond their phenotype.
As I noted, many Dominicans have a "penchant" for light skin for the reasons I noted. If you are somehow insinuating that Dominicans have an inherent knowledge of their "phenotype" based on an American perspective, you would be wrong. There is no knowledge no interest in this topic here, if there were they wouldn't be such a mixed race.
sagascend wrote:
Haitian immigrants are treated abominably and many dark skinned Dominicans or half-Haitians born in the DR on the border experience virulent racism because they are despised as "Haitians." Interestingly enough, however, well-off Haitians vacation in the DR without hesitation.
Is this really racism when the poorest of Haitians are treated bad yet affluent ones can do as they please? The universities here in the DR are full of Haitian students, and while there may be some ostracization, there is no lack of social intercourse between them and Dominicans.
One shouldn't confuse nationalism and classism with racism. My daughter has been a target of ridicule from other students at her private school because her father brings her to school on a motor cycle even though he is a white as snow and fino and they are certainly anything but. Furthermore, you should see how their rich parents look at me from the US100k suv's and bling bling - they must think I'm a bum.
I would also like to state that Domincans who have spent a considerable amount of time in the US are much more racially aware than a typical Dominican who has never traveled.
My aunt on my father side in now dating a Dominican guy. I thought he was African judging the fact that he had an accent and was so dark. She runs around telling everyone her boyfriend is 'Mexican'. Its a very funny situation. I did feel sorry for him though. Most people must look at him like he's crazy when she's running around introducing him as 'mexican' and telling everyone he speaks Spanish. He looks like a regular dark skinned Black guy. Learning he was Dominican I was surprised that he would date my aunt who is also dark skinned. I figured he would be very colorist and racist.
I was surprised that he would date my aunt who is also dark skinned. I figured he would be very colorist and racist.
Colorism can never be that severe. Look at it this way. If every Dominican resolved to marry only someone lighter than himself/herself, the entire population would vanish in one generation. <grin>
Joined: 10 Aug 2006 {Posts: 110 } Location: Somewhere...
Posted: Thu 23 Oct 2008 04:40 Post subject:
chip wrote:
divana wrote:
How does one know my background by my color? It's impossible. By the "Dominican system", someone like Tiger Woods may be "black" when he is of African, Asian and European heritage.
You've misunderstood, Dominican's words to describe people's color don't imply an association with race like in the US.
Just like calling a car red or green has no special significance, neither does moreno, rubio, indio or blanco in Dominican Spanish.
Most Dominicans are more or less unaware of their racial heritage, and even if they are, don't pay special attention to it nor think it important. A byproduct of this "system" if you will, is an enormous amount of intermarrying, based on the American racial classification. No doubt this historical and constant mixing has arguably created some of the most attractive people on this planet.
That is not my understanding of the Dominican system... It may be true for many but certainly not all.
Joined: 24 Sep 2008 {Posts: 102 } Location: Santiago, DR
Posted: Thu 23 Oct 2008 12:32 Post subject:
divana wrote:
That is not my understanding of the Dominican system... It may be true for many but certainly not all.
My understanding is based on living here and speaking the language, however, I understand people have different experience so I would like to learn more about yours.
I would like to add a couple of things that might be pertinent. One, I don't believe one can compare a typical Dominican's take on racism who was raised in the DR and never left with a Dominican who has moved, was born or otherwise has spent a lot of time in the US. The two opinions on racism and color will be at the polar extreme. Two, there is racism in the DR for sure among some of the very, very small Spanish "white" class. However, it would be unfair to judge the whole country based on a few individuals. If that were the case, we would have to label all Americans "rednecks" when that just isn't the case.
As I noted, many Dominicans have a "penchant" for light skin for the reasons I noted. If you are somehow insinuating that Dominicans have an inherent knowledge of their "phenotype" based on an American perspective, you would be wrong. There is no knowledge no interest in this topic here, if there were they wouldn't be such a mixed race.
Take care not to read into my statements. I have said nothing about anti-SSA colorism, which is prevalent in virtually all new world cultures and some old world cultures. My position is that Dominican self-identity is also clearly influenced by direct appeals to the populace over the years to reject "blackness," resulting in some visually incongruent appearance to self-identity labeling. I see no reason to believe that it is out of the ordinary for Dominicans who look like me to refer to themselves as blanca (or india) as a direct result of this cultural tenet. Therefore, I suspect that there is no strict adherence to an appearance-based racial classification scheme. It is certainly strong, as in other parts of the Carribean and Latin America, but DR/Haitian relations suggest that another dimension should be considered.
chip wrote:
Is this really racism when the poorest of Haitians are treated bad yet affluent ones can do as they please? The universities here in the DR are full of Haitian students, and while there may be some ostracization, there is no lack of social intercourse between them and Dominicans.
Sure. The Haitian 'race' is despised in the DR, quite unselfconsciously by people who are not that genetically different. This type of racism is uncommon in the U.S. but it is quite common in the world. One's Haitianness can be excused, and wealth is generally a social lubricant for anyone who is a member of a marginalized group.
Race is not a fixed, universal conception. It is best understood in cultural context.
chip wrote:
One shouldn't confuse nationalism and classism with racism.
You're right, except it seems clear that Dominican nationalism has strong racial elements. Blaquiamento and antihatianismo are not mere expressions of nationalism. I am not saying that Trujillo is like Hitler or Dominicans are Nazis, so please don't get bent out of shape with the following: Would anyone say that Hitler's National Socialism was pure nationalism, although the concept of the German Reich for a German Volk is absolutely nationalistic?
chip wrote:
My daughter has been a target of ridicule from other students at her private school because her father brings her to school on a motor cycle even though he is a white as snow and fino and they are certainly anything but. Furthermore, you should see how their rich parents look at me from the US100k suv's and bling bling - they must think I'm a bum.
Well you're not really parenting unless you have "embarassed" your children and caused them to be made fun of by other kids at some point.
chip wrote:
I would also like to state that Dominicans who have spent a considerable amount of time in the US are much more racially aware than a typical Dominican who has never traveled.
Perhaps in a general sense, but racial awareness in the DR is what it is due to the history of the island.
Joined: 24 Sep 2008 {Posts: 102 } Location: Santiago, DR
Posted: Thu 23 Oct 2008 13:17 Post subject:
sagascend wrote:
Sure. The Haitian 'race' is despised in the DR, quite unselfconsciously by people who are not that genetically different. This type of racism is uncommon in the U.S. but it is quite common in the world.
Is it racism then when many Dominicans are virtually indistiguishable from Haitians?
How about the fact of the constant intermarrying? How many Dominicans can claim Haitian ancestery?
This is more aking to classism, I live here and I see what's going on and I've witnessed a lot of racism in the Southern US and this is different.
As far as Trujillo goes, we killed him a long time ago. What he did was deplorable. That being said, I have heard many people of Haitian ancestry bring this up. On the flip side, many Dominicans are still talking about the occupation. I think it is time to bury the hatchet. However, as long as Haiti continues to be a disaster don't look for it to happen any time soon.
Sure. The Haitian 'race' is despised in the DR, quite unselfconsciously by people who are not that genetically different. This type of racism is uncommon in the U.S. but it is quite common in the world.
Is it racism then when many Dominicans are virtually indistiguishable from Haitians?
How about the fact of the constant intermarrying? How many Dominicans can claim Haitian ancestery?
This is more aking to classism, I live here and I see what's going on and I've witnessed a lot of racism in the Southern US and this is different.
As far as Trujillo goes, we killed him a long time ago. What he did was deplorable. That being said, I have heard many people of Haitian ancestry bring this up. On the flip side, many Dominicans are still talking about the occupation. I think it is time to bury the hatchet. However, as long as Haiti continues to be a disaster don't look for it to happen any time soon.
I'd say it is. I don't expect concepts of race or racism to make sense, and given my own personal view of racialism, if someone could ever make absolute sense of 'race' I would be blown away by their ability to rationalize.
"Races" intermarry. "Races" can be genetically indistinguishable from one another, share religious beliefs, and share common ancestry. The issue is that, for various reasons, an essential difference is pointed out and used to distance oneself from "those people" (even if "they" are also "you").
Our site definition of race:
Quote:
3.3.2 race (in vernacular) — A group of humans seen by the word’s user as somehow different from other groups. The claimed basis of such perception varies between users. For example, although many conflicting U.S. federal regulations enforce demographic classification by “race,” federal agencies disagree on the number and names of “races” and whether Hispanics are a “race.” The excuses most often cited for seeing a group as a “race” are their: appearance, associations, ethnic self-identity, religion, or nationality. Nevertheless, no matter which overt excuse is given in each case, the word’s strong connotation is that “race” is involuntary and genetically predetermined.
It's human nature to fixate on a particularly traumatic occurence and it is par for the course for a culture, ethnic group or nation to nurture these types of grudges to build internal solidarity or gear up for a fight.
I have not compared U.S. racism to racism (antihatianismo) in the DR. I imagine you must because you grew up in one system and now live with another.
As for whether it is classism, I doubt it:
Quote:
3.3.7 classism — Belief in someone’s inferiority, or mistreatment, based upon wealth but independent of ancestry or appearance. For example, when wealthy Brazilians are labeled “white” in the census and admitted to segregated clubs despite having African appearance and known African ancestry, they enjoy the benefits of classism.
If you are using an alternate definition of classism, perhaps, but please share it if so. Classism is like anti-SSA colorism - ubiquitious in new world societies. Neither one fully accounts for what has gone on between Haiti and the DR.
As for the state of Haiti (lol and the DR is not exactly knocking it out of the park!) it is heartbreaking. That a ragtag confederation of revolutionaries led by ex-slaves threw off the colonial yoke and formed a free nation at a time when such a notion was laughable is truly miraculous. Haiti has long had a foot on its neck, so to speak, in retaliation for that victory. U.S. policy towards Haiti has also contributed to its state. This in no way excuses the internal dysfunction, ineptness and corruption that continues to paralyze the nation. It also doesn't help that many of the citizens who were equipped to turn things around have left the country.
Joined: 24 Sep 2008 {Posts: 102 } Location: Santiago, DR
Posted: Thu 23 Oct 2008 13:54 Post subject:
I still think most of the problem can be attributed to nationalism - from MW:
nationalism:
1: loyalty and devotion to a nation ; especially : a sense of national consciousness exalting one nation above all others and placing primary emphasis on promotion of its culture and interests as opposed to those of other nations or supranational groups.
To wit, there was a recent post by fwsweet noting that before the creation of the German state, different regions in what is now Germany considered eachother not Germans, but foreigners. No doubt there was some local prejudices between the regions as it is typical for a group of people to want to distinguish from themselves from "foreigners" by attributing to them different physical traits(mostly negative), etc. even though they might be from the same genetic stock.
I still think most of the problem can be attributed to nationalism - from MW:
nationalism:
1: loyalty and devotion to a nation ; especially : a sense of national consciousness exalting one nation above all others and placing primary emphasis on promotion of its culture and interests as opposed to those of other nations or supranational groups.
To wit, there was a recent post by fwsweet noting that before the creation of the German state, different regions in what is now Germany considered eachother not Germans, but foreigners. No doubt there was some local prejudices between the regions as it is typical for a group of people to want to distinguish from themselves from "foreigners" by attributing to them different physical traits(mostly negative), etc. even though they are from the same genetic stock.
I wouldn't compare the evolution of German national consciousness to the development of the DR. What Frank was referring to is the creation of an Italian American or German American ethnicity in the U.S. while these pan-ethnic notions in Italy and Germany did not necessarily exist.
Now if an entity called Hispaniola or Santo Domingo evolved from the old Haiti/DR split, that would be more comparable. Or if expatriate Haitians and Dominicans in the U.S. formed a Hispaniolan American ethnicity, that would also be comparable.
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Its a very funny situation. I did feel sorry for him though. Most people must look at him like he's crazy when she's running around introducing him as 'mexican' and telling everyone he speaks Spanish. He looks like a regular dark skinned Black guy. Learning he was Dominican I was surprised that he would date my aunt who is also dark skinned. I figured he would be very colorist and racist.
What he did was deplorable. That being said, I have heard many people of Haitian ancestry bring this up. On the flip side, many Dominicans are still talking about the occupation. I think it is time to bury the hatchet. However, as long as Haiti continues to be a disaster don't look for it to happen any time soon.