Posted: Wed 31 Oct 2007 16:19 Post subject: Re: desirable racial traits - 2
Powell wrote:
"This behavior drove a wedge among our people, and that was the point," she wrote. "In pamphlets that offered slaveholders advice on how to 'manage' their captives, one key strategy ... was to keep us at one another's throats over our physical features. Willie Lynch, the (West Indies) slaveholder ... recommended that plantation owners use envy to control their slaves, pitting the light against the dark, and those with 'coarse' hair against those with 'finely textured' hair. It was a strategy that worked to some extent."
The "Willie Lynch" myth is being promoted in a major newspaper by a professional psychologist.
The divide and conquer method has been well a documented practise by colonial powers. Fostering feelings of superiority/inferiority amongst subjugated people was thought to be the best way to limit unified insurrection.
Posted: Wed 31 Oct 2007 16:28 Post subject: Re: desirable racial traits - 2
Powell wrote:
After the Civil War, light-skinned mulattoes further disassociated themselves from darker-skinned blacks. The Bon Ton Society and the Blue Vein Society were formed and applicants had to be fair enough so the blue veins on their skin were visible. Fraternities and churches would use the paper bag test. If the skin of an applicant was darker than the bag, he or she couldn't join. Sometimes, a fine-toothed comb was hung at the door. If one's hair snagged in the comb, entry was denied. (Straight hair was often regarded as "good hair" -- as opposed to tightly curled hair -- often associated with lighter skin.)
I still don't believe this stuff about paper bags and combs. It is presumed that mulattoes have no right to consider themselves different from blacks in race, ethnicity or culture. No such demand would be made of Latinos, Arabs, Jews, Italians or any other group.
I have heard people who claim the earth is only 3,000 years old as stated in the Bible and not millions of years old as proven by scientific methods. Similarly your personal beliefs doubting the existence of the paper bag test and the comb test do not change the fact that it happened.
Additionally other than in Louisiana, there wasn't any major mulatto culture. And even there it appears to me to be a subset of Black American culture. In fact, under the law mulattoes were Negroes and were treated as such
Posted: Wed 31 Oct 2007 16:46 Post subject: Re: desirable racial traits - 2
anonymouse wrote:
Powell wrote:
After the Civil War, light-skinned mulattoes further disassociated themselves from darker-skinned blacks. The Bon Ton Society and the Blue Vein Society were formed and applicants had to be fair enough so the blue veins on their skin were visible. Fraternities and churches would use the paper bag test. If the skin of an applicant was darker than the bag, he or she couldn't join. Sometimes, a fine-toothed comb was hung at the door. If one's hair snagged in the comb, entry was denied. (Straight hair was often regarded as "good hair" -- as opposed to tightly curled hair -- often associated with lighter skin.)
I still don't believe this stuff about paper bags and combs. It is presumed that mulattoes have no right to consider themselves different from blacks in race, ethnicity or culture. No such demand would be made of Latinos, Arabs, Jews, Italians or any other group.
I have heard people who claim the earth is only 3,000 years old as stated in the Bible and not millions of years old as proven by scientific methods. Similarly your personal beliefs doubting the existence of the paper bag test and the comb test do not change the fact that it happened.
Additionally other than in Louisiana, there wasn't any major mulatto culture. And even there it appears to me to be a subset of Black American culture. In fact, under the law mulattoes were Negroes and were treated as such
I challenge you to provide evidence to back up your contentions. Find peer reviewed studies quoting people who said basically the following: "I was a member of the club ___________from the years ____ to ________ and part of our criteria for membership was comparing potential applicants' skin color next to a paper bag and/or running a comb through the hair to ascertain the degree of kinkiness if any." Gossip (I heard it from so-and-so) won't do. Fraternity theme parties mocking the alleged practice won't do.
You have also denied the reality of Charlestown's mulatto or mixed culture as well as countless "triacial isolates" throughout the South and some Northern states.
Posted: Wed 31 Oct 2007 16:49 Post subject: Re: desirable racial traits - 2
anonymouse wrote:
Powell wrote:
"This behavior drove a wedge among our people, and that was the point," she wrote. "In pamphlets that offered slaveholders advice on how to 'manage' their captives, one key strategy ... was to keep us at one another's throats over our physical features. Willie Lynch, the (West Indies) slaveholder ... recommended that plantation owners use envy to control their slaves, pitting the light against the dark, and those with 'coarse' hair against those with 'finely textured' hair. It was a strategy that worked to some extent."
The "Willie Lynch" myth is being promoted in a major newspaper by a professional psychologist.
The divide and conquer method has been well a documented practise by colonial powers. Fostering feelings of superiority/inferiority amongst subjugated people was thought to be the best way to limit unified insurrection.
This morning I stood in front of a mirror holding a paper bag next to my face. To verify the result of the comparison, I took the mirror and the paper bag over to the window, where I received the same result. And in the afternoon, when the light was different, I went back to the window and tried again. But my skin was still darker than the paper bag.
I was repeating a scene I had enacted about 18 years earlier. At the time, I was a shallow 13-year-old, and my standards of physical beauty were limited to two things: bright skin and good hair, “bright” meaning fair-skinned, “good” meaning straight. Though my own coppery skin failed the infamous paper-bag test then as now, I still thought that if you were a black person, it was certainly better to have light skin and smooth, unprocessed hair. “Better” – whatever that means.
Posted: Wed 31 Oct 2007 17:14 Post subject: Re: desirable racial traits - 2
Salsassin wrote:
anonymouse wrote:
Powell wrote:
"This behavior drove a wedge among our people, and that was the point," she wrote. "In pamphlets that offered slaveholders advice on how to 'manage' their captives, one key strategy ... was to keep us at one another's throats over our physical features. Willie Lynch, the (West Indies) slaveholder ... recommended that plantation owners use envy to control their slaves, pitting the light against the dark, and those with 'coarse' hair against those with 'finely textured' hair. It was a strategy that worked to some extent."
The "Willie Lynch" myth is being promoted in a major newspaper by a professional psychologist.
The divide and conquer method has been well a documented practise by colonial powers. Fostering feelings of superiority/inferiority amongst subjugated people was thought to be the best way to limit unified insurrection.
True, but the Willie Lynch claim is still false.
Salsassin says he believes the "Willie Lynch" story. Here's the evidence:
Posted: Wed 31 Oct 2007 17:34 Post subject: Re: desirable racial traits - 2
Powell wrote:
Salsassin wrote:
anonymouse wrote:
Powell wrote:
"This behavior drove a wedge among our people, and that was the point," she wrote. "In pamphlets that offered slaveholders advice on how to 'manage' their captives, one key strategy ... was to keep us at one another's throats over our physical features. Willie Lynch, the (West Indies) slaveholder ... recommended that plantation owners use envy to control their slaves, pitting the light against the dark, and those with 'coarse' hair against those with 'finely textured' hair. It was a strategy that worked to some extent."
The "Willie Lynch" myth is being promoted in a major newspaper by a professional psychologist.
The divide and conquer method has been well a documented practise by colonial powers. Fostering feelings of superiority/inferiority amongst subjugated people was thought to be the best way to limit unified insurrection.
True, but the Willie Lynch claim is still false.
Salsassin says he believes the "Willie Lynch" story. Here's the evidence:
Joined: 30 Mar 2005 {Posts: 1057 } Location: New Jersey
Posted: Wed 31 Oct 2007 17:45 Post subject: Re: desirable racial traits - 2
Powell wrote:
Salsassin wrote:
anonymouse wrote:
Powell wrote:
"This behavior drove a wedge among our people, and that was the point," she wrote. "In pamphlets that offered slaveholders advice on how to 'manage' their captives, one key strategy ... was to keep us at one another's throats over our physical features. Willie Lynch, the (West Indies) slaveholder ... recommended that plantation owners use envy to control their slaves, pitting the light against the dark, and those with 'coarse' hair against those with 'finely textured' hair. It was a strategy that worked to some extent."
The "Willie Lynch" myth is being promoted in a major newspaper by a professional psychologist.
The divide and conquer method has been well a documented practise by colonial powers. Fostering feelings of superiority/inferiority amongst subjugated people was thought to be the best way to limit unified insurrection.
True, but the Willie Lynch claim is still false.
Salsassin says he believes the "Willie Lynch" story. Here's the evidence:
I assume A. D. means that the link provides evidence of the Willie Lynch story's being a lie, and not that it provides evidence of Salsassin's belief of the story, since Jaime is not part of that thread.
Don't assume:
"Salsassin says he believes the "Willie Lynch" story. "
It is in Black and White.
2.3 Do not engage in straw man. — Make sure that you understand what the other person is saying before replying. Never caricature or distort another person’s argument.
Joined: 30 Mar 2005 {Posts: 1057 } Location: New Jersey
Posted: Wed 31 Oct 2007 18:10 Post subject:
Salsassin wrote:
Don't assume:
"Salsassin says he believes the "Willie Lynch" story. "
It is in Black and White.
2.3 Do not engage in straw man. — Make sure that you understand what the other person is saying before replying. Never caricature or distort another person’s argument.
Now, hold it there!
I feel this is a case of misinterpretation. I feel A. D. saw Jaime's statement...
Salsassin wrote:
True, but the Willie Lynch claim is still false.
...and assumed it applied to her statement that the Willy Lynch claim is false. In other words, A. D. assumed Jaime was saying her claim of the falseness of the Willy Lynch claim is false.
I'm not going to suspend anyone for misinterpretation!
A. D., please clarify within 24 hours that this is what you mistakenly thought, or correct me if I am wrong.
Posted: Wed 31 Oct 2007 19:01 Post subject: Lynch myth
William wrote:
Salsassin wrote:
Don't assume:
"Salsassin says he believes the "Willie Lynch" story. "
It is in Black and White.
2.3 Do not engage in straw man. — Make sure that you understand what the other person is saying before replying. Never caricature or distort another person’s argument.
Now, hold it there!
I feel this is a case of misinterpretation. I feel A. D. saw Jaime's statement...
Salsassin wrote:
True, but the Willie Lynch claim is still false.
...and assumed it applied to her statement that the Willy Lynch claim is false. In other words, A. D. assumed Jaime was saying her claim of the falseness of the Willy Lynch claim is false.
I'm not going to suspend anyone for misinterpretation!
A. D., please clarify within 24 hours that this is what you mistakenly thought, or correct me if I am wrong.
Salsassin wrote:
anonymouse wrote:
Powell wrote:
"This behavior drove a wedge among our people, and that was the point," she wrote. "In pamphlets that offered slaveholders advice on how to 'manage' their captives, one key strategy ... was to keep us at one another's throats over our physical features. Willie Lynch, the (West Indies) slaveholder ... recommended that plantation owners use envy to control their slaves, pitting the light against the dark, and those with 'coarse' hair against those with 'finely textured' hair. It was a strategy that worked to some extent."
The "Willie Lynch" myth is being promoted in a major newspaper by a professional psychologist.
The divide and conquer method has been well a documented practise by colonial powers. Fostering feelings of superiority/inferiority amongst subjugated people was thought to be the best way to limit unified insurrection.
True, but the Willie Lynch claim is still false.
William's interpretation is correct. I said that the Willie Lynch story was false and Salsassin asked me to prove it. Jaime said my "claim" was false. Isn't he therefore saying that the Lynch story is true?
Posted: Wed 31 Oct 2007 19:04 Post subject: Re: Lynch myth
Powell wrote:
William wrote:
Salsassin wrote:
Don't assume:
"Salsassin says he believes the "Willie Lynch" story. "
It is in Black and White.
2.3 Do not engage in straw man. — Make sure that you understand what the other person is saying before replying. Never caricature or distort another person’s argument.
Now, hold it there!
I feel this is a case of misinterpretation. I feel A. D. saw Jaime's statement...
Salsassin wrote:
True, but the Willie Lynch claim is still false.
...and assumed it applied to her statement that the Willy Lynch claim is false. In other words, A. D. assumed Jaime was saying her claim of the falseness of the Willy Lynch claim is false.
I'm not going to suspend anyone for misinterpretation!
A. D., please clarify within 24 hours that this is what you mistakenly thought, or correct me if I am wrong.
Salsassin wrote:
anonymouse wrote:
Powell wrote:
"This behavior drove a wedge among our people, and that was the point," she wrote. "In pamphlets that offered slaveholders advice on how to 'manage' their captives, one key strategy ... was to keep us at one another's throats over our physical features. Willie Lynch, the (West Indies) slaveholder ... recommended that plantation owners use envy to control their slaves, pitting the light against the dark, and those with 'coarse' hair against those with 'finely textured' hair. It was a strategy that worked to some extent."
The "Willie Lynch" myth is being promoted in a major newspaper by a professional psychologist.
The divide and conquer method has been well a documented practise by colonial powers. Fostering feelings of superiority/inferiority amongst subjugated people was thought to be the best way to limit unified insurrection.
True, but the Willie Lynch claim is still false.
William's interpretation is correct. I said that the Willie Lynch story was false and Salsassin asked me to prove it. Jaime said my "claim" was false. Isn't he therefore saying that the Lynch story is true?
The way I read this Jaime is responding to anonymouse that the Willy Lynch claim is still false. The actual claim (or infamous hoax), not Powell's reference to it.
Posted: Wed 31 Oct 2007 19:04 Post subject: Re: Lynch myth
Powell wrote:
William wrote:
Salsassin wrote:
Don't assume:
"Salsassin says he believes the "Willie Lynch" story. "
It is in Black and White.
2.3 Do not engage in straw man. — Make sure that you understand what the other person is saying before replying. Never caricature or distort another person’s argument.
Now, hold it there!
I feel this is a case of misinterpretation. I feel A. D. saw Jaime's statement...
Salsassin wrote:
True, but the Willie Lynch claim is still false.
...and assumed it applied to her statement that the Willy Lynch claim is false. In other words, A. D. assumed Jaime was saying her claim of the falseness of the Willy Lynch claim is false.
I'm not going to suspend anyone for misinterpretation!
A. D., please clarify within 24 hours that this is what you mistakenly thought, or correct me if I am wrong.
Salsassin wrote:
anonymouse wrote:
Powell wrote:
"This behavior drove a wedge among our people, and that was the point," she wrote. "In pamphlets that offered slaveholders advice on how to 'manage' their captives, one key strategy ... was to keep us at one another's throats over our physical features. Willie Lynch, the (West Indies) slaveholder ... recommended that plantation owners use envy to control their slaves, pitting the light against the dark, and those with 'coarse' hair against those with 'finely textured' hair. It was a strategy that worked to some extent."
The "Willie Lynch" myth is being promoted in a major newspaper by a professional psychologist.
The divide and conquer method has been well a documented practise by colonial powers. Fostering feelings of superiority/inferiority amongst subjugated people was thought to be the best way to limit unified insurrection.
True, but the Willie Lynch claim is still false.
William's interpretation is correct. I said that the Willie Lynch story was false and Salsassin asked me to prove it. Jaime said my "claim" was false. Isn't he therefore saying that the Lynch story is true?
Again, violation of rule. I await Powell's evidence that I asked her to prove anything about the Willie Lynch Letter. Blatant strawman. In fact, I didn't even respond to her.
Joined: 30 Mar 2005 {Posts: 1057 } Location: New Jersey
Posted: Wed 31 Oct 2007 19:29 Post subject:
This was a case of misinterpretation. A.D. has clarified what I suspected.
Quote:
Again, violation of rule. I await Powell's evidence that I asked her to prove anything about the Willie Lynch Letter. Blatant strawman. In fact, I didn't even respond to her.
This is not valid, as A.D. misinterpreted Jaime's remark about the Lynch story being false, and thought he believe it to be true, and so posted evidence to the contrary.
I can understand A.D.'s confusion. Look at how it was posted:
Salsassin wrote:
anonymouse wrote:
Powell wrote:
"This behavior drove a wedge among our people, and that was the point," she wrote. "In pamphlets that offered slaveholders advice on how to 'manage' their captives, one key strategy ... was to keep us at one another's throats over our physical features. Willie Lynch, the (West Indies) slaveholder ... recommended that plantation owners use envy to control their slaves, pitting the light against the dark, and those with 'coarse' hair against those with 'finely textured' hair. It was a strategy that worked to some extent."
The "Willie Lynch" myth is being promoted in a major newspaper by a professional psychologist.
The divide and conquer method has been well a documented practise by colonial powers. Fostering feelings of superiority/inferiority amongst subjugated people was thought to be the best way to limit unified insurrection.
True, but the Willie Lynch claim is still false.
A.D. thought Jaime was attacking her quote that Anonymous posted. I must insist that everyone be clear on who they are responding to, to avoid this in future.
The debate about this must now end, or the thread will be locked.
Wrong. There is a clear statement that I supposedly told her to prove something, The word prove is nowhere in site. I clearly stated to one poster that they were right in their divide and conquer claims but that Willie Lynch was false. I didn't ask anyone to prove anything before she made the audacious claim.
Joined: 30 Mar 2005 {Posts: 1057 } Location: New Jersey
Posted: Wed 31 Oct 2007 20:01 Post subject:
Salsassin wrote:
Wrong. There is a clear statement that I supposedly told her to prove something, The word prove is nowhere in site. I clearly stated to one poster that they were right in their divide and conquer claims but that Willie Lynch was false. I didn't ask anyone to prove anything before she made the audacious claim.
A.D. misinterpreted your somewhat ambiguous statement, "True, but the Willie Lynch claim is still false." as meaning that her claim that it is false is false. (Of course, that's not what you meant, but that's what she thought you meant. She jumped the gun and you were a bit unclear.) So, when someone claims someone else's statement of fact is false, there is usually an implication that the person who made the original statement should provide evidence. That is why A.D. linked to the other thread. I don't know why she specifically said you asked her to prove it, but she must have assumed you wanted this.
The whole thing was based on a misunderstanding, part of which was caused by your ambiguity. Now it has been resolved, and we know what everyone's intentions were. Therefore, the debate will end.
Joined: 20 Oct 2006 {Posts: 283 } Location: Akron, Ohio
Posted: Thu 01 Nov 2007 06:54 Post subject:
Sagascend said:
''The way I read this Jaime is responding to anonymouse that the Willy Lynch claim is still false. The actual claim (or infamous hoax), not Powell's reference to it.''
Yes.
I'm thinking Anonymouse was lending himself to Willie Lynch after responding to Powell's post which said it was false. Salsassin in effect reminded Anonymouse there was no such thing.
Sagascend said:
''The way I read this Jaime is responding to anonymouse that the Willy Lynch claim is still false. The actual claim (or infamous hoax), not Powell's reference to it.''
Yes.
I'm thinking Anonymouse was lending himself to Willie Lynch after responding to Powell's post which said it was false. Salsassin in effect reminded Anonymouse there was no such thing.
Actually i have never heard of Willie Lynch but that methods he has supposedly been credited with was commonly employed in colonial times by European powers, esp. the British. Salsassin was agreeing with me but disagreeing with using Willie Lynch as a historical figure.
'
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