Egmond Codfried
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Joined: 03 Jul 2008
{Posts: 169 }
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 Posted: Wed 23 Jul 2008 15:29 Post subject: |
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| William wrote: | Just want to comment on a few points:
Most of us here, like you, find the subject of Afro-European mixing interesting from a scholarly point of view. That is one of the reasons why Frank (the administrator) and I created our index of studies on admixture.
The work of Frank Snowden is second to none. He has ably proven the existence of Africans in Greek and Roman societies, the intermixture between Africans and Europeans in these societies, and the eventual absorption of Africans into European populations in these ancient times. He does this from the standpoint of art and literature. His works are cornerstones for anyone interested in these topics. I have both of his books: Blacks in Antiquity, and Before Color Prejudice. If you are interested in his 1940s articles, The Negro in Ancient Greece, and the Negro in Classical Italy, I have them, and can make copies for you. Some of the data is the same as what is in his later books, but there is a bit more detail in these articles.
| Egmond wrote: | | [J. Lawrence Angel's] findings confirm Snowden who did not use any archaeological skeleton evidence. |
That was his purpose for including them in his review of Frank Snowden's book. He praised Snowden's work. I do have the full review at home. Let me know if you're interested.
| Egmond wrote: | | William wrote: | | 5) having cranial measurements that are similar to Europeans -- some of the folks of Ethiopia and Somalia, and many others near the Sahara, despite having very dark skin and often tightly-coiled hair, would fall into this definition of "White." |
For my research I read a book titled, ‘The Invention of The White Race.’ The title sums it up. This thing you write here and the definition is still hard for me to swallow. I suggested earlier the ‘KKK/ Grand Dragon test.’ If these so called ‘Whites’ from Africa would be accepted for Grand Dragon, I would immediately end my research and join a monastery or something. I guess they would be shot on sight as an ‘uppity, troublesome n*gger’ the moment they would try to enter the KKK compound. |
You must learn to distinguish the science of craniology from the "eyeballing" technique. In terms of crania, many of the folks of places such as Burkina Faso and Ethiopia would be considered "Caucasoids" in the outdated sense of the term. In terms of skin-tone, hair texture, and other attributes they would not, of course. One of the reasons why craniology, although scientific, has fallen out of favor (aside from the fact that the advent of DNA pushed it aside), is because it began to seem downright ridiculous to include folks from Ethiopia and India in the "White" or "Caucasoid" grouping. If anything, all this should serve to prove that no bio-race in humans exists. Traits that are thought of as belonging to this "race" or that "race" really exist in other peoples as well.
Scientists often did not agree on how to categorize populations by "race." This is true of scientists in the same field, such as craniology, too. In my 1968 World Book Encyclopedia article on "race," it is mentioned that Ethiopians are part of the "Negroid" grouping, and southern Indians are "mixed-race Caucasoids."
As for admixture in the Dutch, I do have a forensics study at home that mentions that in a nation such as the Netherlands, which has had a long colonial history, it is not uncommon to find a phenotypically European male who has an African mtDNA and an Asian Y-chromosome. I also know of another study that discusses admixture in the Netherlands (this is the abstract, but I do have the full study at home):
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15178968?dopt=Abstract
| Quote: | 1: Community Genet. 1998;1(4):243-51.Related Articles, Links
The molecular spectrum of beta-thalassemia and abnormal hemoglobins in the allochthonous and autochthonous dutch population.
Giordano PC, Harteveld CL, Heister AJ, Batelaan D, van Delft P, Plug R, Losekoot M, Bernini LF.
MGC Department of Human Genetics, Leiden University, Leiden, The Netherlands. piero@ruly46.medfac.leidenuniv.nl
The prevalence at birth of hemoglobin defects in the autochthonous North-European population is low. However, the long immigration and colonial history of the Netherlands has resulted in a group of about 1-2 million 'autochthonous' inhabitants, with Asian, South-European or African ancestors, in whom a moderate birth prevalence of globin gene mutations can be expected. Furthermore, at least 10% of the Dutch population consists of recent immigrants from different countries with high birth prevalence of hemoglobinopathies. Because of the endogamous partner choice, which is prevalent in this population, the risk for homozygous progeny remains elevated. At least 100,000 carriers of hemoglobinopathies of recent allochthonous origin are present in the Netherlands, and the number of homozygous children is rising. Prevention by prenatal diagnosis requires a suitable protocol and knowledge about the molecular defects present in the country. Therefore we have analyzed a large number of patients and carriers, both at the hematological and at the DNA level. Our survey revealed 47 different beta-thalassemia determinants, characterized on 223 independent chromosomes from individuals of different ethnic origins. As expected, the most prevalent mutations were largely represented. The cd39 (C-->T) mutation was found in 70% of the immigrants from Morocco, Sardinia and other Central-West-Mediterranean regions while the IVS-I-110 (G-->A) was prevalent in the East-Mediterranean populations. The IVS-I-5 (G-->C) mutation was found in 45% of the patients of Indonesian origin. We also registered 308 independent chromosomes with common structural defects (HbS, HbC, HbE, Hb Lepore, Hb Constant Spring and HbD Punjab) and 33 chromosomes with 19 different, less frequent, rare or very rare mutants. Seven structural mutants were described for the first time and published separately. Furthermore, 139 independent chromosomes with deletional and nondeletional alpha-thalassemia defects were characterized.
PMID: 15178968 [PubMed] |
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[Johan de Witt]
Dear William,
I take notice of your sources and printed the information you offered. But please notice my thesis is about Bleu Blood is Black Blood and is about 1500-1789. In the Charlotte Sophie thread I have written that pockets of Blackness will not appear if you search for Blackness in the whole population. Some of my remarks are not central to the thesis, but show the atmosphere I’m working in.
I am researching the nobility and Royal families, and the intellectual elite. They will not give up DNA samples or allow measuring of crania, and certainly not for a research which questions their ethnicity. So we have to go by personal descriptions and portraits which show blackness. Usually their reliable genealogies don't go back before the 12th century. But there are mythical genealogies which link them up to biblical figures, up till Adam. I have read some books about the Habsburg House and came across these fantasy (?) bloodlines. But perhaps they are not so mythical as scientist here believe.
There are some human remains on display in The Hague of the brothers De Witt, who were lynched and their body parts sold as souvenirs. They have the tongue of Cornelis and the toe of Johan. The toe looks Black, but I do not know if this means something. But if some great scholar would propose a DNA analysis on these parts, and would offer to pay for it, we could be getting somewhere.
Interestingly enough they were used in a psychic TV reality show, and the contestants had to identify the wrapped parcel and perhaps come up with a name. The first psychic immediately said ‘Black.’ But this was all that came out.
Egmond Codfried |
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