As someone who was raised in Louisiana, I can attest that the 'Creole Heritage', while still present, has been greatly watered down. I also know and have known families that are still split into B-W branches even now. Looking at families, the elderly appear 'mixed-race' (Blk) or 'off-white' (Whte), but each succesive generation has become 'Black' or 'White'. And French is rarely spoken (esp. since before, it was looked down upon)...
TODAY, there are White and Black Creoles (who seem to prefer being called either White or Black) who share the same great-or grand-parents. Many know the other side, but leave them alone. And there are few Bliss Broussards outing the family either. It just is and is understood to be.
I would also say that many, many, many Creoles under 50ish are culturally African-American. My opinion. They are often not Catholic, do not speak French, nor cook 'Creole' food nor attend social gatherings apart from AAs. I expect them to be a footnote in history in about 50 years or so.
Joined: 26 May 2007 {Posts: 394 } Location: San Antonio, Texas
Posted: Wed 28 May 2008 15:03 Post subject: Re: Stealing more Creole History for African-Americans
gemini072 wrote:
I hear what your saying. But how much different are they supposed to be? Is a person no longer Puerto Rican if they don't speak with an accent, now pentecostal and not Catholic and can't salsa dance?
I hear and understand your points of the specific cultural nuances of Louisiana Creole culture. But how does a person remain that while being a part of mainstream American culture.
I never said that these people are no longer Creole - however, what I am saying is that it appears that the Creole identity has been reduced to the same example I gave concerning next door neighbor Bobby Joe Connor's Irish identity. I'm not going to deny that Bobby Joe Connor is Irish, but when there's absolutely no cultural difference between him and his fishing/bowling/drinking buddy, Larry Korkowski, then his claim to Irishness - while not invalid - is almost devoid of any real meaning.
The example of the Puerto Rican you gave doesn't exactly equate, since although the one or few Puerto Ricans you mention might not exhibit Puerto Rican cultural norms, there are enough others who do so that observers can easily conclude that the Puerto Rican in question is simply one of the few that doesn't exhibit Puerto Rican cultural norms.
Now where, exactly, do you get a statement of fact out of this? I can, however, confirm what I said about those that I live around.
gemini072 wrote:
My point was that the ODR doesn't really have to be influencing his demand. If Wesley Snipes says he doesn't embrace hip hop, and many people who look like him do not, people will say the same thing to him. Black & White.
It all depends. There are situations in which someone who looks like Wesley Snipes and doesn't embrace hip hop may actually be LESS likely to face that situation
Let me tell you story of my time in the Navy, while stationed in Norfolk.
While the ship was underway, the uniform was coveralls - basically, a blue jumpsuit. When the ship is inport, this uniform cannot be worn off the pier. However, the inport working uniform, the utilities (basically, a dickie form of the old dungarees) can be worn off the pier and in transit to and from the base.
Whenever the ship pulled into homeport, we were all eager to go home. So many people would just change from their coveralls their civilian clothes, getting ready to go home. However, whenever there were Chief Petty Officers walking around that needed some work done, those people in civilian clothes were the first to get yanked into doing that work - as if to say, "Where do you think YOU'RE going? Get over here and help with this!"
I, on the other hand, being equally eager to go home, put on my utility uniform - that way I don't look as eager, and it actually fooled people into thinking that I intended to hang around the ship for awhile. Needless to say, I was off the ship and on my way home QUICK - never once had to help out with any of that "busy work".
In this situation, I'd equate my phenotype to civilian clothes, and Wesley Snipes' phenotype to the utility uniform.
As someone who was raised in Louisiana, I can attest that the 'Creole Heritage', while still present, has been greatly watered down. I also know and have known families that are still split into B-W branches even now. Looking at families, the elderly appear 'mixed-race' (Blk) or 'off-white' (Whte), but each succesive generation has become 'Black' or 'White'. And French is rarely spoken (esp. since before, it was looked down upon)...
TODAY, there are White and Black Creoles (who seem to prefer being called either White or Black) who share the same great-or grand-parents. Many know the other side, but leave them alone. And there are few Bliss Broussards outing the family either. It just is and is understood to be.
I would also say that many, many, many Creoles under 50ish are culturally African-American. My opinion. They are often not Catholic, do not speak French, nor cook 'Creole' food nor attend social gatherings apart from AAs. I expect them to be a footnote in history in about 50 years or so.
I agree, especially with your last paragraph. Among the descendants of those who split into two branches, "Creoleness" is a noslagic sentiment without tangible meaning.
The destruction of the distinct (pre-Jim Crow) gens de couleur libre cultural community with its own language and its tradition of tenacious independence from both White and Black is a done deal. Its loss is sad in the same sense that the extinction of a species is sad. The world becomes poorer and drabber with every lost culture. But I cannot blame their descendants, who now self-identifify as Black or White, and who see their Creole roots as a bland sanitized afterthought. They and their parents were raised with a harshly enforced dichotomous color line. They do not know any better.
The only glimmer of hope is not in Louisiana, but in California. Those few Creole families who, for whatever reason, preferred exile to splitting fled to the west coast. Some of their elders are trying to preserve/revive a unifed culturally coherent Creole identity. I wish them all the best, but must admit that it is a long hard uphill battle against both Blacks and Whites who agree on only one thing: that anyone who refuses to choose sides is a "racist."
Last edited by fwsweet on Wed 28 May 2008 16:58; edited 1 time in total
Posted: Wed 28 May 2008 15:43 Post subject: Re: Stealing more Creole History for African-Americans
Richard Miller wrote:
gemini072 wrote:
I hear what your saying. But how much different are they supposed to be? Is a person no longer Puerto Rican if they don't speak with an accent, now pentecostal and not Catholic and can't salsa dance?
I hear and understand your points of the specific cultural nuances of Louisiana Creole culture. But how does a person remain that while being a part of mainstream American culture.
I never said that these people are no longer Creole - however, what I am saying is that it appears that the Creole identity has been reduced to the same example I gave concerning next door neighbor Bobby Joe Connor's Irish identity. I'm not going to deny that Bobby Joe Connor is Irish, but when there's absolutely no cultural difference between him and his fishing/bowling/drinking buddy, Larry Korkowski, then his claim to Irishness - while not invalid - is almost devoid of any real meaning.
The example of the Puerto Rican you gave doesn't exactly equate, since although the one or few Puerto Ricans you mention might not exhibit Puerto Rican cultural norms, there are enough others who do so that observers can easily conclude that the Puerto Rican in question is simply one of the few that doesn't exhibit Puerto Rican cultural norms.
I live in NY state and a large number of Puerto Ricans do not exhibit PR cultural norms, I grew up with a good number that didn't even speak spanish. ( I found out after coming home from Spanish classes to practice with someone) A lot of these numbers are under 30. Their style and speech is different from parents, most don't go to church and definately not Catholic. And a lot prefer hip hop over Salsa. Maybe this is similar to was has happened to/happening to Creole culture.
Now where, exactly, do you get a statement of fact out of this? I can, however, confirm what I said about those that I live around.
gemini072 wrote:
My point was that the ODR doesn't really have to be influencing his demand. If Wesley Snipes says he doesn't embrace hip hop, and many people who look like him do not, people will say the same thing to him. Black & White.
It all depends. There are situations in which someone who looks like Wesley Snipes and doesn't embrace hip hop may actually be LESS likely to face that situation.
First off most AA adults 45 and up don't embrace hip hop.
If a person is discerned to be of AA heritage male and young, they are assumed to listen to hip hop. I've been in the presence of situations where black kids who are grunge or into the skateboard culture, have been called into question about their blackness. This was mainly done by white people.
But it all comes in different situaiton. Yes it all depends.
Let me tell you story of my time in the Navy, while stationed in Norfolk.
While the ship was underway, the uniform was coveralls - basically, a blue jumpsuit. When the ship is inport, this uniform cannot be worn off the pier. However, the inport working uniform, the utilities (basically, a dickie form of the old dungarees) can be worn off the pier and in transit to and from the base.
Whenever the ship pulled into homeport, we were all eager to go home. So many people would just change from their coveralls their civilian clothes, getting ready to go home. However, whenever there were Chief Petty Officers walking around that needed some work done, those people in civilian clothes were the first to get yanked into doing that work - as if to say, "Where do you think YOU'RE going? Get over here and help with this!"
I, on the other hand, being equally eager to go home, put on my utility uniform - that way I don't look as eager, and it actually fooled people into thinking that I intended to hang around the ship for awhile. Needless to say, I was off the ship and on my way home QUICK - never once had to help out with any of that "busy work".
In this situation, I'd equate my phenotype to civilian clothes, and Wesley Snipes' phenotype to the utility uniform.
Joined: 26 May 2007 {Posts: 394 } Location: San Antonio, Texas
Posted: Wed 28 May 2008 16:56 Post subject: Re: Stealing more Creole History for African-Americans
gemini072 wrote:
I live in NY state and a large number of Puerto Ricans do not exhibit PR cultural norms, I grew up with a good number that didn't even speak spanish. ( I found out after coming home from Spanish classes to practice with someone) A lot of these numbers are under 30. Their style and speech is different from parents, most don't go to church and definately not Catholic. And a lot prefer hip hop over Salsa. Maybe this is similar to was has happened to/happening to Creole culture.
I won't deny the possibility that you could be right, concerning the direction of Puerto Rican culture in the US - however, all I'm saying is that today's Creoles don't hold the same distinctiveness as today's Puerto Ricans in their current state.
gemini072 wrote:
First off most AA adults 45 and up don't embrace hip hop.
I would agree that older AA's don't embrace hip hop, but I would place the cut-off a bit higher than 45.
Remember that today's 45-year-olds were still freshmen and sophomores in high school when Sugar Hill Gang and Kurtis Blow came out, were not yet old enough to buy alcohol when Whodini came out, and were still in their early 20's when Run DMC came out, were still quite a ways from 30 when Eazy-E and Public Enemy came out, and finally hit 30 when Snoop Doggy Dogg came out with his album. By then, hip hop already had been made it's impact on AA culture.
Yeah most of the forefathers of rap are all older than 45 today and were born in the decade of the 1950s. Ice-T for example is at the ripe old age of 50.
Joined: 26 May 2007 {Posts: 394 } Location: San Antonio, Texas
Posted: Wed 28 May 2008 18:00 Post subject:
Bischoff wrote:
Ice-T for example is at the ripe old age of 50.
This brings up a good point, and bring us back on topic of Louisiana Creoles.
So anonymouse, pay close attention:
Personal life aside, Ice-T identifies as Louisiana Creole himself. As a hip hop historical figure, not only is he of African American culture, but he took part in shaping it into what it is today. Culturally, what's Creole about this man? Nothing.
But not a word out of you, concerning his personal life. Ice-T was responsible for bringing into the mainstream the questioning of the blackness of his fellow Louisiana Creole, Bryant Gumbel.
To an outsider who does not understand how Blackness works in the United States, they might find it weird that Ice-T would question Bryan Gumble's Blackness when T's pigmentation is closer to White than that of Gumbel's. But Blackness in the U.S is more than just a pigmentation thing, it's also a cultural thing.
To an outsider who does not understand how Blackness works in the United States, they might find it weird that Ice-T would question Bryan Gumble's Blackness when T's pigmentation is closer to White than that of Gumbel's. But Blackness in the U.S is more than just a pigmentation thing, it's also a cultural thing.
I believe he was commenting on Gumbel's way of speaking and behaving. I suppose someone could call Ice-T on his love of non-black women.
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It just is and is understood to be.
