Posted: Fri 20 Jun 2008 04:53 Post subject: No equivalency
sagascend wrote:
Powell wrote:
Connerly's quote is hardly an "attack." People who compare those who criticize the ODR with those who advocate it is nearly always disingenuous.
I'm fine to agree to disagree on how Connerly's statements can be characterized but I hardly agree that it is disingenous to point out that Connerly has not addressed the virtual silence on this issue from similarly situated Democratic candidates (politically) or Republicans who are presumed to support his position without questioning. I find the difference in treatment startling coming from someone who is all about inidividual merit and diminishing the importance of racial categorization. I am not surprised that you do not agree. Why isn't John McCain responsible for upholding the "idiotic racial classification system?" Coming from someone who actually does agree with this statement, I don't hold any one politician more or less accountable. The only reason I can see that you or Connerly seem to is because Obama is the child of cross-color line parents, and therefore "racially obligated" while McCain is not. It's a systemic problem of racialism in which those most impacted by the ODR are tasked with solving, but apparently no one else is. Why?
Powell wrote:
One is an elephant and the other a gnat. Critics of the ODR have no power to "force" (which, IMO, is only a projection by the pro-ODR forces) anyone to change his or her racial classification. The pro-ODR forces have lots of political power and they use it to force "blackness" on the living and dead. Do you deny this?
This is the same logic that leads some people to conclude that "minorities" cannot be racist. The valence or direction of power has nothing to do with how forceful it can be. Political power is relative and changes. The pro-ODR forces do not have anything to do with Connerly speaking his mind, unless you're contending that he is unable to say what he wants to say because he is being silenced?
The problem with supporting a minority position is that the burden of persuasion rests with supporters of this position. MLK had a minority position in the 50s/60s and now it is downright un-American to criticize his position. Now I wasn't alive then but my impression is that he believed that holding a mirror up to the nation to bring scrutiny to the sheer absurdity and inhumaness of the Jim Crow system would bring about its downfall. The multiracial movement (or at least visible advocates like Connerly), IMO, is taking cues from the subsequent Black Power Movement, which was all about angry, self-righteous and racialized confrontation of unequal treatment by an oppressive majority. I'm not saying anger or outrage is the wrong response or that I don't understand it, but I don't think it is effective. It doesn't win the hearts and minds of the majority. Lasting and positive change comes from leading people to draw the right conclusions on their own not "shaming" people into acquiescence (but silent resentment).
Making Obama a whipping boy or lighting rod is only going to create a new opposition and make it more difficult for him to make inroads. It might make supporters feel better and get big applause but it won't make it easier for him to address this issue, which I believe he wants to and would. I don't think the strategy is effective and pointing that out is not disingenous.
Surely you know that "minorities" (You mean blacks, don't you?) who claim some kind of immunity to racism (or at least their spokesmen claim it for them) are both politically powerful and socially insecure. Show me a politically powerless "minority" that gets to claim the moral authority of dictating who is and is not "racist."
You make what I consider a ridiculous claim of moral equivalency between anti-ODR advocates and pro-ODR advocates. Do you see the column above by Earl Ofari Hutchinson? Any black with some power or influence can slam those who reject the ODR and advocate freedom of choice any time they damn well please. Do you deny this? Are the anti-ODR advocates given the same forum (a mainstream audience of thousands if not millions) to answer back? Hell No!
Posted: Fri 20 Jun 2008 15:48 Post subject: Re: No equivalency
Powell wrote:
Surely you know that "minorities" (You mean blacks, don't you?) who claim some kind of immunity to racism (or at least their spokesmen claim it for them) are both politically powerful and socially insecure.
No - specifically I mean "minority" groups, usually referring to a group who wishes to distinguish itself according to the oppression perpetuated by a majority. I've had Jewish people, Arabs, Latinos and Asians in the U.S. tell me that they can't be racist either. It's as absurd as believing that racism is a one-way, one-dimensional phenomenon.
As for the "socially insecure," it is clear that many groups who agitate using a grievance-based approach are socially insecure. So yes, I agree that some Black American advocates/politicians express social insecurity with this approach...and so do some multiracialist advocates. Two sides of the same coin. Everything is about grievance, anger and finger pointing at the demonized oppressor, even far beyond this oppressor's actual ability to influence outcomes.
It's my opinion, once again, that this approach breeds resentment and surface-level compliance, but not a true change of heart or empathy with a group or position.
Quote:
Show me a politically powerless "minority" that gets to claim the moral authority of dictating who is and is not "racist."
Moral authority isn't granted, it is earned. By definition, someone with authority has power, correct? How did they get it?
Quote:
You make what I consider a ridiculous claim of moral equivalency between anti-ODR advocates and pro-ODR advocates.
How is it ridiculous? And what I actually said is that the tactics were similar. I made no statements about whether their goals are morally equivalent, what I said is that I don't see this approach as effective. Do you? What has it achieved in your personal opinion?
Quote:
Do you see the column above by Earl Ofari Hutchinson? Any black with some power or influence can slam those who reject the ODR and advocate freedom of choice any time they damn well please. Do you deny this?
Read what I wrote again. Can you summarize my position accurately? If so, there would be no need to even ask this question.
Quote:
Are the anti-ODR advocates given the same forum (a mainstream audience of thousands if not millions) to answer back? Hell No!
Well of course not. This country's current racial classification system and binary color line is deeply ingrained in its culture, society and politics. This is a centuries-old way of thinking and it is the mainstream way of thinking. I'm trying to figure out why you would even expect equal time, and I'm really trying to understand why you would expect this forum to be given to you? Does this site exist because someone "allowed" Frank to create it?
What are you and others in the multiracial movement doing to move the hearts and minds of the American public that supports the ODR overtly or passively? I don't mean what are you doing to criticize the status quo (it's obvious that you spend a lot of time and energy offering such critiques), but what are you doing to educate, inform, re-program whatever you want to call it?
You spend a lot of time criticizing Blacks, which may be justified, may make sense and may get resounding applause from "the base," but how is that approach working for you? How many Black people have you persuaded to reject the ODR with this approach, since they are apparently the main obstacle to removing it (something I disagree with completely - as if the average White person in the U.S. isn't an ODR supporter!)?
If you'd contend that this approach is effective then I'll leave it alone. It's doesn't seem like it from where I am sitting.
Posted: Sun 22 Jun 2008 03:22 Post subject: Re: No equivalency
sagascend wrote:
Powell wrote:
Surely you know that "minorities" (You mean blacks, don't you?) who claim some kind of immunity to racism (or at least their spokesmen claim it for them) are both politically powerful and socially insecure.
No - specifically I mean "minority" groups, usually referring to a group who wishes to distinguish itself according to the oppression perpetuated by a majority. I've had Jewish people, Arabs, Latinos and Asians in the U.S. tell me that they can't be racist either. It's as absurd as believing that racism is a one-way, one-dimensional phenomenon.
As for the "socially insecure," it is clear that many groups who agitate using a grievance-based approach are socially insecure. So yes, I agree that some Black American advocates/politicians express social insecurity with this approach...and so do some multiracialist advocates. Two sides of the same coin. Everything is about grievance, anger and finger pointing at the demonized oppressor, even far beyond this oppressor's actual ability to influence outcomes.
It's my opinion, once again, that this approach breeds resentment and surface-level compliance, but not a true change of heart or empathy with a group or position.
Quote:
Show me a politically powerless "minority" that gets to claim the moral authority of dictating who is and is not "racist."
Moral authority isn't granted, it is earned. By definition, someone with authority has power, correct? How did they get it?
Quote:
You make what I consider a ridiculous claim of moral equivalency between anti-ODR advocates and pro-ODR advocates.
How is it ridiculous? And what I actually said is that the tactics were similar. I made no statements about whether their goals are morally equivalent, what I said is that I don't see this approach as effective. Do you? What has it achieved in your personal opinion?
Quote:
Do you see the column above by Earl Ofari Hutchinson? Any black with some power or influence can slam those who reject the ODR and advocate freedom of choice any time they damn well please. Do you deny this?
Read what I wrote again. Can you summarize my position accurately? If so, there would be no need to even ask this question.
Quote:
Are the anti-ODR advocates given the same forum (a mainstream audience of thousands if not millions) to answer back? Hell No!
Well of course not. This country's current racial classification system and binary color line is deeply ingrained in its culture, society and politics. This is a centuries-old way of thinking and it is the mainstream way of thinking. I'm trying to figure out why you would even expect equal time, and I'm really trying to understand why you would expect this forum to be given to you? Does this site exist because someone "allowed" Frank to create it?
What are you and others in the multiracial movement doing to move the hearts and minds of the American public that supports the ODR overtly or passively? I don't mean what are you doing to criticize the status quo (it's obvious that you spend a lot of time and energy offering such critiques), but what are you doing to educate, inform, re-program whatever you want to call it?
You spend a lot of time criticizing Blacks, which may be justified, may make sense and may get resounding applause from "the base," but how is that approach working for you? How many Black people have you persuaded to reject the ODR with this approach, since they are apparently the main obstacle to removing it (something I disagree with completely - as if the average White person in the U.S. isn't an ODR supporter!)?
If you'd contend that this approach is effective then I'll leave it alone. It's doesn't seem like it from where I am sitting.
"What have YOU done to win the war?" said the draft dodger to the war hero. I have literally put my well-being and very life on the line during the years of writing for "Interracial Voice" and "The Multiracial Activist." There are plenty of crazy black-identified folks out there who will do any thing to silence those who publicly oppose forced "black" identity. I have worked to make people aware of historical research showing that the ODR is NOT (as you appear to believe) some kind of natural, universal belief going black hundreds of years. I have reached out to other groups that independently discovered their mixed ancestry and the effect of the ODR on their ancestors, such as Melungeons and Redbones. I have spoken at their conferences. When you consider that Charles Michael Byrd, James Landrith and other comrades in the movement are people of modest means, we have managed to accomplish miracles DESPITE the power of the black-identified elites. How is it that you don't already know this? My articles and essays have been posted for years on the internet. What have YOU done to fight the ODR supported by your beloved blacks? What have YOU written? I never heard of you before this forum, yet you dare to ask what I have done??!! That is a damned insult, given my public work and what I have endured.
You, like so many other folks from a "black" background, demand to know why I don't condemn "whites" equally for supporting the ODR. That's because I deal with evidence and the here and now. The Multiracial Movement PROVED that blacks are the moral authority behind the ODR. I have seen no evidence that most "whites" are interested in supporting the ODR or fighting to maintain it. Those "whites" who have supported the ODR by condemning Anatole Broyard and others accused of "passing" are usually LIBERALS and see their condemnation as anti-racist support of blacks. If black leaders start supporting freedom of choice in racial identity and denounce the "racial kidnapping" of historical figures, I will be among the first to condemn any "whites" who stand in opposition. However, until that moment comes, black support of the ODR is the fig leaf that any "white" ODR supporter can hide behind. Blacks are the cornerstone of the ODR house. You want me to criticize forced racial identity without making blacks look bad? Maybe someone will write a history of World War II without making Germans and Japanese look bad.
Posted: Mon 23 Jun 2008 02:41 Post subject: Re: No equivalency
Powell wrote:
sagascend wrote:
Powell wrote:
Connerly's quote is hardly an "attack." People who compare those who criticize the ODR with those who advocate it is nearly always disingenuous.
I'm fine to agree to disagree on how Connerly's statements can be characterized but I hardly agree that it is disingenous to point out that Connerly has not addressed the virtual silence on this issue from similarly situated Democratic candidates (politically) or Republicans who are presumed to support his position without questioning. I find the difference in treatment startling coming from someone who is all about inidividual merit and diminishing the importance of racial categorization. I am not surprised that you do not agree. Why isn't John McCain responsible for upholding the "idiotic racial classification system?" Coming from someone who actually does agree with this statement, I don't hold any one politician more or less accountable. The only reason I can see that you or Connerly seem to is because Obama is the child of cross-color line parents, and therefore "racially obligated" while McCain is not. It's a systemic problem of racialism in which those most impacted by the ODR are tasked with solving, but apparently no one else is. Why?
Powell wrote:
One is an elephant and the other a gnat. Critics of the ODR have no power to "force" (which, IMO, is only a projection by the pro-ODR forces) anyone to change his or her racial classification. The pro-ODR forces have lots of political power and they use it to force "blackness" on the living and dead. Do you deny this?
This is the same logic that leads some people to conclude that "minorities" cannot be racist. The valence or direction of power has nothing to do with how forceful it can be. Political power is relative and changes. The pro-ODR forces do not have anything to do with Connerly speaking his mind, unless you're contending that he is unable to say what he wants to say because he is being silenced?
The problem with supporting a minority position is that the burden of persuasion rests with supporters of this position. MLK had a minority position in the 50s/60s and now it is downright un-American to criticize his position. Now I wasn't alive then but my impression is that he believed that holding a mirror up to the nation to bring scrutiny to the sheer absurdity and inhumaness of the Jim Crow system would bring about its downfall. The multiracial movement (or at least visible advocates like Connerly), IMO, is taking cues from the subsequent Black Power Movement, which was all about angry, self-righteous and racialized confrontation of unequal treatment by an oppressive majority. I'm not saying anger or outrage is the wrong response or that I don't understand it, but I don't think it is effective. It doesn't win the hearts and minds of the majority. Lasting and positive change comes from leading people to draw the right conclusions on their own not "shaming" people into acquiescence (but silent resentment).
Making Obama a whipping boy or lighting rod is only going to create a new opposition and make it more difficult for him to make inroads. It might make supporters feel better and get big applause but it won't make it easier for him to address this issue, which I believe he wants to and would. I don't think the strategy is effective and pointing that out is not disingenous.
Surely you know that "minorities" (You mean blacks, don't you?) who claim some kind of immunity to racism (or at least their spokesmen claim it for them) are both politically powerful and socially insecure. Show me a politically powerless "minority" that gets to claim the moral authority of dictating who is and is not "racist."
You make what I consider a ridiculous claim of moral equivalency between anti-ODR advocates and pro-ODR advocates. Do you see the column above by Earl Ofari Hutchinson? Any black with some power or influence can slam those who reject the ODR and advocate freedom of choice any time they damn well please. Do you deny this? Are the anti-ODR advocates given the same forum (a mainstream audience of thousands if not millions) to answer back? Hell No!
A.D. is absolutely correct. Blacks enjoy total political immunity to dictate on whim who is and who is not racist. They have free reign to engage in whatever form or racist and ethnocentric bigotry they feel is warranted and no one is there to stop them because the traditional PC police of America - White liberals, are on their side, and take orders from the African American black-advocates.
There is no forum for anti-ODR persons to speak out because any such attempt is labeled racist. I have seen numerous columnists and other pundits label A.D. a racist simply because of her "shocking" and "unthinkable" views.
Can you imagine the reaction if people were to open a forum advocating similar stances? It would be a fire-storm of mudslinging and accusations of racism.
This is all a chess-game which the stronger forces (the black ODR advocates and their liberal White allies) are naturally winning.
Posted: Mon 23 Jun 2008 02:53 Post subject: Re: No equivalency
"
Quote:
Show me a politically powerless "minority" that gets to claim the moral authority of dictating who is and is not "racist."
Moral authority isn't granted, it is earned. By definition, someone with authority has power, correct? How did they get it?"
No. Moral authority is ceded by the acquiesence of the majority population. And who are they? Whites. Whites feel guilty because of the past attrocities against Blacks, and now we are afraid to say anything in our defence. The more caucasian one is, the greater this is the case. Blacks did not earn nor do they deserve the moral authority they possess, which is at present unbriddled. It is given to them out of fear and shame.
Quote:
Are the anti-ODR advocates given the same forum (a mainstream audience of thousands if not millions) to answer back? Hell No!
What are you and others in the multiracial movement doing to move the hearts and minds of the American public that supports the ODR overtly or passively? I don't mean what are you doing to criticize the status quo (it's obvious that you spend a lot of time and energy offering such critiques), but what are you doing to educate, inform, re-program whatever you want to call it?
Hahhaha. Nothing can convince the White Puritanist public that the ODR is wrong except constant confrontation with those who refuse to accept it. The best way to do so is to convince multiracials to reject it. This will ensure the omnipresence of anti-ODR thinking inside of White America. The greater such exposure, the more likely social distance will decrease with succeeding generations.
You spend a lot of time criticizing Blacks, which may be justified, may make sense and may get resounding applause from "the base," but how is that approach working for you? How many Black people have you persuaded to reject the ODR with this approach, since they are apparently the main obstacle to removing it (something I disagree with completely - as if the average White person in the U.S. isn't an ODR supporter!)?
The average White person is not an ODR supporter . According to recent research 55% of Americans reject the ODR. How about that? Now you tell me Sag, why is it that Blacks so ardently claim that the ODR is universal? I have not heard one white person say this, not even the nazis. Please tell me.
No, its okay. I will tell you.
Because blacks want to paint a picture of ubiquitous extreme social distance between Whites and multiracials/biracials. All lies I tell you.
Posted: Mon 23 Jun 2008 03:05 Post subject: Re: No equivalency
Powell's Words Bolded:
"What have YOU done to win the war?" said the draft dodger to the war hero.
She talks a lot but does nothing. Its all academic to her. Typical.
I have literally put my well-being and very life on the line during the years of writing for "Interracial Voice" and "The Multiracial Activist." There are plenty of crazy black-identified folks out there who will do any thing to silence those who publicly oppose forced "black" identity.
Thank you so much A.D. You are our hero. One of the few in history who had the courage and the fortitude to stand against the tide of oppression.
How is it that you don't already know this? My articles and essays have been posted for years on the internet.
Hail!
What have YOU done to fight the ODR supported by your beloved blacks?
She's done nothing!
What have YOU written?
She's written nothing!
I never heard of you before this forum, yet you dare to ask what [b]I have done??!! That is a damned insult, given my public work and what I have endured.[/b]
Hail!!
The Multiracial Movement PROVED that blacks are the moral authority behind the ODR. I have seen no evidence that most "whites" are interested in supporting the ODR or fighting to maintain it.
Hail!!
Those "whites" who have supported the ODR by condemning Anatole Broyard and others accused of "passing" are usually LIBERALS and see their condemnation as anti-racist support of blacks.
Damn right they are!
If black leaders start supporting freedom of choice in racial identity and denounce the "racial kidnapping" of historical figures, I will be among the first to condemn any "whites" who stand in opposition.
Me too!
Blacks are the cornerstone of the ODR house.
Yep!
You want me to criticize forced racial identity without making blacks look bad? Maybe someone will write a history of World War II without making Germans and Japanese look bad.
Posted: Mon 23 Jun 2008 10:48 Post subject: Re: No equivalency
Powell wrote:
"What have YOU done to win the war?" ... your beloved blacks? What have YOU written? ...
My goodness! Sagascend evidently hit a hot button!
I think that AD overlooked the moderator's request that, in order to avoid misunderstanding, AD should try to re-state Sagascend's thesis. I second the moderator's request because I think that the misunderstanding is deepening. As I read it, Sagascend was not criticizing AD's effort and dedication towards eradicating the ODR. She was raising a question about the effectiveness of the strategy and tactics being used.
This is a perfectly legitimate question by someone who shares AD's goal. It is unproductive to respond to a question about the tactics employed towards achieving a goal as if it were a challege of one's loyalty or committment. The plain fact is that multiracialism has not taken hold among the general public as quickly as everyone hoped in the mid-90s. Why not look again at tactics? (Oh yes, and the "beloved blacks" crack was definitely uncalled for.)
[For what it's worth, my experence as a management consultant is that when a client reacts to a consultant's suggested reconsideration of tactics as if were a challenge to the client's dedication, the reaction is usually triggered by the client's own cognitive dissonance that the goals are not being met as quickly as one might hope.]
Posted: Mon 23 Jun 2008 15:00 Post subject: Re: No equivalency
fwsweet wrote:
Powell wrote:
"What have YOU done to win the war?" ... your beloved blacks? What have YOU written? ...
My goodness! Sagascend evidently hit a hot button!
I think that AD overlooked the moderator's request that, in order to avoid misunderstanding, AD should try to re-state Sagascend's thesis. I second the moderator's request because I think that the misunderstanding is deepening. As I read it, Sagascend was not criticizing AD's effort and dedication towards eradicating the ODR. She was raising a question about the effectiveness of the strategy and tactics being used.
This is a perfectly legitimate question by someone who shares AD's goal. It is unproductive to respond to a question about the tactics employed towards achieving a goal as if it were a challege of one's loyalty or committment. The plain fact is that multiracialism has not taken hold among the general public as quickly as everyone hoped in the mid-90s. Why not look again at tactics? (Oh yes, and the "beloved blacks" crack was definitely uncalled for.)
[For what it's worth, my experence as a management consultant is that when a client reacts to a consultant's suggested reconsideration of tactics as if were a challenge to the client's dedication, the reaction is usually triggered by the client's own cognitive dissonance that the goals are not being met as quickly as one might hope.]
Perhaps, Frank, Maya could restate her thesis. She said in plain English that I have done nothing to fight the ODR except post (and criticize blacks) on this forum. I would like to know how other members read her words. You say that she merely critiqued "strategy." The "strategy" she attributed to me was totally incorrect. I corrected her errors of fact.
Posted: Mon 23 Jun 2008 15:50 Post subject: Re: No equivalency
Powell wrote:
fwsweet wrote:
Powell wrote:
"What have YOU done to win the war?" ... your beloved blacks? What have YOU written? ...
My goodness! Sagascend evidently hit a hot button!
I think that AD overlooked the moderator's request that, in order to avoid misunderstanding, AD should try to re-state Sagascend's thesis. I second the moderator's request because I think that the misunderstanding is deepening. As I read it, Sagascend was not criticizing AD's effort and dedication towards eradicating the ODR. She was raising a question about the effectiveness of the strategy and tactics being used.
This is a perfectly legitimate question by someone who shares AD's goal. It is unproductive to respond to a question about the tactics employed towards achieving a goal as if it were a challege of one's loyalty or committment. The plain fact is that multiracialism has not taken hold among the general public as quickly as everyone hoped in the mid-90s. Why not look again at tactics? (Oh yes, and the "beloved blacks" crack was definitely uncalled for.)
[For what it's worth, my experence as a management consultant is that when a client reacts to a consultant's suggested reconsideration of tactics as if were a challenge to the client's dedication, the reaction is usually triggered by the client's own cognitive dissonance that the goals are not being met as quickly as one might hope.]
Perhaps, Frank, Maya could restate her thesis. She said in plain English that I have done nothing to fight the ODR except post (and criticize blacks) on this forum. I would like to know how other members read her words. You say that she merely critiqued "strategy." The "strategy" she attributed to me was totally incorrect. I corrected her errors of fact.
You spend a lot of time criticizing Blacks, which may be justified, may make sense and may get resounding applause from "the base,"but how is that approach working for you?
I didn't read it as an attack, I did think she was directing it toward what is the positive result... is the audience being reached... standpoint. etc etc
Posted: Mon 23 Jun 2008 17:07 Post subject: Re: No equivalency
gemini072 wrote:
Powell wrote:
fwsweet wrote:
Powell wrote:
"What have YOU done to win the war?" ... your beloved blacks? What have YOU written? ...
My goodness! Sagascend evidently hit a hot button!
I think that AD overlooked the moderator's request that, in order to avoid misunderstanding, AD should try to re-state Sagascend's thesis. I second the moderator's request because I think that the misunderstanding is deepening. As I read it, Sagascend was not criticizing AD's effort and dedication towards eradicating the ODR. She was raising a question about the effectiveness of the strategy and tactics being used.
This is a perfectly legitimate question by someone who shares AD's goal. It is unproductive to respond to a question about the tactics employed towards achieving a goal as if it were a challege of one's loyalty or committment. The plain fact is that multiracialism has not taken hold among the general public as quickly as everyone hoped in the mid-90s. Why not look again at tactics? (Oh yes, and the "beloved blacks" crack was definitely uncalled for.)
[For what it's worth, my experence as a management consultant is that when a client reacts to a consultant's suggested reconsideration of tactics as if were a challenge to the client's dedication, the reaction is usually triggered by the client's own cognitive dissonance that the goals are not being met as quickly as one might hope.]
Perhaps, Frank, Maya could restate her thesis. She said in plain English that I have done nothing to fight the ODR except post (and criticize blacks) on this forum. I would like to know how other members read her words. You say that she merely critiqued "strategy." The "strategy" she attributed to me was totally incorrect. I corrected her errors of fact.
You spend a lot of time criticizing Blacks, which may be justified, may make sense and may get resounding applause from "the base,"but how is that approach working for you?
I didn't read it as an attack, I did think she was directing it toward what is the positive result... is the audience being reached... standpoint. etc etc
I don't know what "base" Maya is talking about. The object of criticizing the ODR is to inform people who have been miseducated by the ODR advocates - regardless of whether that audience is "multiracial," "White," or whatever. The intent is NOT to argue with ODR advocates. They are a hopeless case.
Joined: 27 Nov 2004 {Posts: 1442 } Location: Hudson Valley, NY
Posted: Mon 23 Jun 2008 21:07 Post subject:
Powell wrote:
The Multiracial Movement PROVED that blacks are the moral authority behind the ODR. I have seen no evidence that most "whites" are interested in supporting the ODR or fighting to maintain it. Those "whites" who have supported the ODR by condemning Anatole Broyard and others accused of "passing" are usually LIBERALS and see their condemnation as anti-racist support of blacks. If black leaders start supporting freedom of choice in racial identity and denounce the "racial kidnapping" of historical figures, I will be among the first to condemn any "whites" who stand in opposition. However, until that moment comes, black support of the ODR is the fig leaf that any "white" ODR supporter can hide behind. Blacks are the cornerstone of the ODR house. You want me to criticize forced racial identity without making blacks look bad? Maybe someone will write a history of World War II without making Germans and Japanese look bad.
I agree with AD here about mainly how the black elites support of the ODR. I also agree that said black elites consider themselves the moral authority behind the ODR. I also agree from my personal experience that most whites either could not care about the ODR, or at least think it is out dated. The exception are white liberals for the most part as AD stated. Blacks like that pip squeak, Spike Lee, are among the "arm twisters" in the enforcement of the ODR.
I have personally experienced people trying to force an identity on me, whether it be because of the music I dug, or because of my political philosophy. I have it said to me that no matter who I hung out with, how I spoke, how I thought of myself, "I was still black", this that and the other thing. I felt these people were trying to bring me down to their level, they must've thought low of themselves, otherwise, why would they care what I was doing, particularly when they didn't like me anyway.
I was sort of a local multiracial activist in Poughkeepsie, NY, having wrote a few articles in support of a multiracial category, backed with historical facts for the local paper here. Granted, just about all the feedback I received was positive and from whites. The Editor did tell me of a group of blacks that met did not like the articles and wanted to discuss it with him. One of my Aunts participated at at least one of their meetings and defended me, being able to "pass" herself, she knew what I was writing was not meant to be divisive, but truthful. That said, I am not very popular with the black activist community in Poughkeepsie, NY. Tough cookes. Most of the resistance I encountered was via internet forums. That included personal attacks, insults, and threats. When I found IV, I said to myself, why I couldn't I have found this 5 years earlier.
The average White person is not an ODR supporter . According to recent research 55% of Americans reject the ODR. How about that? Now you tell me Sag, why is it that Blacks so ardently claim that the ODR is universal? I have not heard one white person say this, not even the nazis. Please tell me.
I think the comparison to those black supporters of the ODR to whites is being looked at wrong.
Whites support it, but in a different way than blacks. With whites it comes through stereotypes, assumptions and a few other suggestive gestures.
With blacks/mixed/biracial/multiracial these things concern us more so there is this sensless integrating of this outdated idea in various cultural forms. Black identified people are much more likely to openly say to various degrees they believe in the ODR.
White people aren't concerned about these things as they may have been before because they may have been sheltered from the problem. It's not until 'Blacks' coming into their company that they begin to really think about all of this racial stuff. Blacks/mixed/biracial people tend to be exposed to these things early on and constantly(individual and environment depending)
DCHapman just posted some things I was actually going to say and it is right on the head. He opened up part of what I meant when I said Black... are exposed to these things early in. (it in the midst of these people of black-american ancestry)
I've found that whites can be very quiet about what they actually think because they don't want to appear to be racist or have prejudice.
As soon as you begin to try to have an educational dialogue about race and prejudices, they get defensive by saying they have a black friend or had a pretty black girlfriend before. Some get aggrivated that your talking about this and that they see everyone as the same. And the conversation is over pretty soon. If your not confident enough you'll feel bad about bringing it up, as if you race obsessed.
Here is an example of what I think is whites subtly supporting the ODR.
I have a fellow coworker who is PR. He is a bit younger and has actually opened dialogue concerning similar physical similarities and family similarities. Such as the fact that he and I look just alike, we both noted we could easily be brothers, features, complexion and hair texture.
Most people would not assume he was PR by his speach mannerisms dress and music tastes, and his 'baby's momma is a black american woman' and I have been assumed to be puerto rican or dominican.
We'll one day he and I were talking and a fellow coworker (white woman of predominately English background) steps into the conversation about how he and I look alike. She said that I look black and he looks puerto rican. We both had a good laugh (at her).
The only way you would know he was of puerto rican heritage is his name L Cruz and from there the assumption come.
I strongly support ad powells shedding the light on the 'hypocracy of the latino escape hatch'
here is another example: Now you can see my aviator picture. I have been in the office talking with 1 or 2 of the older black gentlemen who have resemblence to Ben Vereen and/or samuel jackson. And have had white coworkers who felt they need to make us feel good about our lot in life by making reference to us all looking the same. That we all resemble each other. (this was supposed to be a self esteem boost)
Or the occasional assumptions that you must line up with all things black that they may have heard over the news read in a magazine or seen on tv. You talk jive because all black people talk jive, you listen to rap and you can rap because all black people listen to it (yet over 60% of rap consumers are white)
I could go down the list of things that are stereotypes and blatant prejudices that in my opinion support my belief that whites (subtly) support the ODR.
And most of these people I'm talking about are conservative(s).
Last edited by gemini072 on Tue 24 Jun 2008 02:12; edited 2 times in total
The Multiracial Movement PROVED that blacks are the moral authority behind the ODR. I have seen no evidence that most "whites" are interested in supporting the ODR or fighting to maintain it. Those "whites" who have supported the ODR by condemning Anatole Broyard and others accused of "passing" are usually LIBERALS and see their condemnation as anti-racist support of blacks. If black leaders start supporting freedom of choice in racial identity and denounce the "racial kidnapping" of historical figures, I will be among the first to condemn any "whites" who stand in opposition. However, until that moment comes, black support of the ODR is the fig leaf that any "white" ODR supporter can hide behind. Blacks are the cornerstone of the ODR house. You want me to criticize forced racial identity without making blacks look bad? Maybe someone will write a history of World War II without making Germans and Japanese look bad.
I agree with AD here about mainly how the black elites support of the ODR. I also agree that said black elites consider themselves the moral authority behind the ODR. I also agree from my personal experience that most whites either could not care about the ODR, or at least think it is out dated. The exception are white liberals for the most part as AD stated. Blacks like that pip squeak, Spike Lee, are among the "arm twisters" in the enforcement of the ODR.
I have personally experienced people trying to force an identity on me, whether it be because of the music I dug, or because of my political philosophy. I have it said to me that no matter who I hung out with, how I spoke, how I thought of myself, "I was still black", this that and the other thing. I felt these people were trying to bring me down to their level, they must've thought low of themselves, otherwise, why would they care what I was doing, particularly when they didn't like me anyway.
I was sort of a local multiracial activist in Poughkeepsie, NY, having wrote a few articles in support of a multiracial category, backed with historical facts for the local paper here. Granted, just about all the feedback I received was positive and from whites. The Editor did tell me of a group of blacks that met did not like the articles and wanted to discuss it with him. One of my Aunts participated at at least one of their meetings and defended me, being able to "pass" herself, she knew what I was writing was not meant to be divisive, but truthful. That said, I am not very popular with the black activist community in Poughkeepsie, NY. Tough cookes. Most of the resistance I encountered was via internet forums. That included personal attacks, insults, and threats. When I found IV, I said to myself, why I couldn't I have found this 5 years earlier.
Posted: Tue 24 Jun 2008 00:28 Post subject: Re: No equivalency
fwsweet wrote:
Powell wrote:
"What have YOU done to win the war?" ... your beloved blacks? What have YOU written? ...
My goodness! Sagascend evidently hit a hot button!
I think that AD overlooked the moderator's request that, in order to avoid misunderstanding, AD should try to re-state Sagascend's thesis. I second the moderator's request because I think that the misunderstanding is deepening. As I read it, Sagascend was not criticizing AD's effort and dedication towards eradicating the ODR. She was raising a question about the effectiveness of the strategy and tactics being used.
This is a perfectly legitimate question by someone who shares AD's goal. It is unproductive to respond to a question about the tactics employed towards achieving a goal as if it were a challege of one's loyalty or committment. The plain fact is that multiracialism has not taken hold among the general public as quickly as everyone hoped in the mid-90s. Why not look again at tactics? (Oh yes, and the "beloved blacks" crack was definitely uncalled for.)
[For what it's worth, my experence as a management consultant is that when a client reacts to a consultant's suggested reconsideration of tactics as if were a challenge to the client's dedication, the reaction is usually triggered by the client's own cognitive dissonance that the goals are not being met as quickly as one might hope.]
ROTFL!!!! As Frank pinpoints, fellow long-suffering and oft-maligned problem-solver that he is , I am not questioning or challenging A.D. loyalty work ethic or dedication to the multiracial movement. I am questioning the effectiveness of these confrontational, angry and demonization tactics I see her employing. I seem to have hit a nerve, which in my profession experience leads me to believe we actually might get somewhere after all of the chest-thumping and indignant outrage is over with. I am truly interested in helping to solve this problem and help USAmericans who feel threatened by the multiracial label and personal identity choice overcome their fears. I believe that all of this oppression-based rhetoric distracts from doing the hard work of persuasion and negotiation. Anyone who has actually solved a difficult people problem without dropping an atom bomb on the opposition might agree (and perhaps even many who did drop the bomb, after the fact).
If A.D. or anyone else can demonstrate the effectiveness of these tactics, by all means share the victories. I'd really be impressed if you could do so by focusing on what you or others in the movement did rather than what "Blacks" did or did not do to "make" you react in a certain way. Do you recognize the shift in thinking?
Once again for the cheap seats:
I request that A.D. take a breath and restate my argument. I would not suggest posting anything else in this thread before doing so because I will interpret blatant disregard for that request as defiance of the moderator and act accordingly. Take any issues with that up in Site Management. Thank you.
I request that anyone interested in solutions continue the conversation and all the other unproductive chatter (ImBack - official warning: Don't use this as an opportunity to flame out and get suspended because you dislike scrutiny of theories or methodology put forth - you won't last 10 minutes in grad school if this is how you handle an honest critique of your work). Thank you.
It seems to me that the focus might be better aimed. The A-A leaders who marshaled the costly effort to crush the multiracial movement will not be persuaded. They are committed to the ODR and opposed to the very idea of people freely choosing ethnic identity. Their position is powerfully familiar, and was once accepted by virtually everyone on earth: you are born into your station in life and denying your roots by attempting to change your station in life is wicked and sinful. Since they sincerely believe this, excoriating them seems inefficient. I am reminded of the 1955-65 civil rights movement.
As long as African Americans seeking equal citizenship attacked the authorities (verbally and otherwise) they got nowhere. As long as the authorities attacked the demonstrators they lost public support. It is true that in warfare you attack your enemy and do not play to the gallery. But the opposite is true if you want to bring about political change.
The greatest triumph of MLK's group was when they skillfully maneuvered Bull Connor into unleashing his attack dogs on national TV in an apparently unprovoked attack. The greatest victory of the Jim Crow authorities was when Sheriff Laurie Pritchett of Albany, Georgia crushed a civil rights demonstration by having his police officers stand unmoving under a barrage of bricks and rocks thrown by Blacks and calmly smiling into the TV camera, "did you see them nonviolent rocks?" When he finally ordered his men to arrest the rioters, TV viewers across the nation cheered.
My point is that the proper target of political activism is never the enemy (ODR proponents in this case). It is the vast apathetic public. I would ask two questions: (1) What action on the movement's part is most likely to arouse the interest of 200+ million White Americans into becoming aware of the existence of the ODR and then opposing it? (2) What action can the enemy be maneuvered into that will discredit them in the eyes of millions of repulsed viewers.
I stress "White Americans" because their support/opposition of the ODR (like everything else) is decisive. When it comes to political power, they are the ones who count. MLK and Laurie Pritchett both recognized this obvious fact. Minorities have power only to the extent that they can persuade majorities.
My point is that the proper target of political activism is never the enemy (ODR proponents in this case). It is the vast apathetic public. I would ask two questions: (1) What action on the movement's part is most likely to arouse the interest of 200+ million White Americans in opposing the ODR? (2) What action can the enemy be maneuvered into that will discredit them in the eyes of millions of repulsed viewers.
I was just circling around this idea while pondering my support for NASA in the related thread. It's not that I hate or love NASA, it's that I don't give a damn at the end of the day. I have too many other things to think about and NASA funding is not very important to me. Now an astrophysicist might call for my head, and so might a strict Libertarian, but the fact is that neither camp has persuaded me to have a strong opinion. Neither camp should assume that I am pro or con on this issue.
Similarly, the vast White American apathy on the ODR shouldn't be perceived as anything but a large mass at rest that requires a force to be applied in order to move it in a direction.
My answer to 1) is to make the "multiracial" category appealing to Whites. Find some White celebrities who are willing to do their genealogy and reveal admixture test results. My answer to 2) is to a) require that high schools teach evolutionary biology and anthropology using the foundation that race is a sociological construct b) push for the proliferation of ethnic categories on the U.S Census, which will draw support from a large immigrant base, many of whom are of SSA ancestry but not Black American
Joined: 27 Nov 2004 {Posts: 163 } Location: Original Thirteen Colonies, North America
Posted: Tue 01 Jul 2008 15:37 Post subject:
sagascend wrote:
fwsweet wrote:
My point is that the proper target of political activism is never the enemy (ODR proponents in this case). It is the vast apathetic public. I would ask two questions: (1) What action on the movement's part is most likely to arouse the interest of 200+ million White Americans in opposing the ODR? (2) What action can the enemy be maneuvered into that will discredit them in the eyes of millions of repulsed viewers.
I was just circling around this idea while pondering my support for NASA in the related thread. It's not that I hate or love NASA, it's that I don't give a damn at the end of the day. I have too many other things to think about and NASA funding is not very important to me. Now an astrophysicist might call for my head, and so might a strict Libertarian, but the fact is that neither camp has persuaded me to have a strong opinion. Neither camp should assume that I am pro or con on this issue.
Similarly, the vast White American apathy on the ODR shouldn't be perceived as anything but a large mass at rest that requires a force to be applied in order to move it in a direction.
My answer to 1) is to make the "multiracial" category appealing to Whites. Find some White celebrities who are willing to do their genealogy and reveal admixture test results. My answer to 2) is to a) require that high schools teach evolutionary biology and anthropology using the foundation that race is a sociological construct b) push for the proliferation of ethnic categories on the U.S Census, which will draw support from a large immigrant base, many of whom are of SSA ancestry but not Black American
*DING* *DING* *DING*
Alright Ms. Sagascend (big smile), don't start any mess.
*hahaha*
NASA is very important. What if we can find a large deposit of gold
on some planet out there, or some other extremely valuable natural
resource. We'll rule the market in that commodity. Ma'am (heehee),
just think of that. What if we find a planet full of oil. Think of that.
Any nation somehow not seeing that, and not preparing for the advantage
a space program can give one nation over all the rest, is missing out
just as those who didn't produce modern weponry lost out during the
age of world conquest; several hundred years ago. Those nations
and peoples ended up enslaved, dominated, or annilated. Alright, I'm
okay now (hahaha). Ma'am, I just have to cut back on the coffee.
Sagascend (smile), I bet that argument has now persuaded you to
have a strong opinion in favor of NASA (heehee). So that's the kind
of good persuasion the Multiracial Movement may need, right (chuckle)?
Now back to this wonderfully thought provoking thread on tactics
and their effectiveness, in regard to the Multiracial Movement.
What a great thread this is; very good. It seems to be right on the
money.
By the way, good to see you guys; each and every one of you.
And now (chuckle), back to the matter at hand. This important
thread on the effectiveness or lack thereof of the Multiracial
Movement, and how if need be, effectiveness can be increased.
Or should we Multiracials do as several here and elsewhere would
caringly seem to sometimes suggest, and forget about it altogether.
Who knows? I don't have a clue? The evolving future will decide.
*heehee*
*smile*
Ms. Sagascend, Ma'am (great big smile),
with humble respect and warm regards;
Joined: 27 Nov 2004 {Posts: 163 } Location: Original Thirteen Colonies, North America
Posted: Wed 02 Jul 2008 21:50 Post subject:
Most mixed race Anglos, I believe, have quietly decided
to move on and do what has to be done for themselves
and their loved ones, on a purely individual level.
I think most come to see that any group efforts will be so
infiltrated by well-meaning saboteurs, that the effort is useless.
So most move on, I think, quietly marrying usually with
those of other groups; and seldom with other multiracials.
Just as their parents and ancestors mixed, they too seem to
continue the tradition; usually mixing with more pure looking
black Americans or with whites; & often with other groups, as well.
I don't see too many Multiracials feeling comfortable marrying
one another. The important thing is that they are in love and
happy with whomever they choose to marry. They are all
precious to me, just as are all other human beings.
I see Multiracialism in the USA evolving as an individual thing,
and not as a group thing. I may be wrong. Yet, I do see the
USA as being in the future, a Multiracial nation; looking almost
as it did before the first European conqueror or African slave
set foot on these shores. I think our mother the earth is
working to see to it that we end up once again looking like
the original people of this land. And no matter how hard any
of us try, nature will not be denied.
Africa has its look, Europe has its, and the Americas will have
ours. This is not Africa or Europe. These are the Americas;
and nature will have us eventually look as nature has always
had this part of the world look.
So if I'm right, there's no need for a Multiracial Movement,
because nature itself is already taking care of what needs to
be taken care of. She is bringing to these shores blood from
all over our earth. Put all that blood together, as it almost
surely will be within the next several hundred years, and
what do you have? You have the Americas looking like the
Americas had always looked, up until the aberation of the
last four or five hundred years; since contact.
So I guess it doesn't really matter what works or doesn't
work, because no matter what, Nature will have her way.
I may be wrong, I often am. These are just some observations.
Posted: Wed 02 Jul 2008 22:07 Post subject: Re: No equivalency
ImBack wrote:
Powell's Words Bolded:
"What have YOU done to win the war?" said the draft dodger to the war hero.
She talks a lot but does nothing. Its all academic to her. Typical.
I have literally put my well-being and very life on the line during the years of writing for "Interracial Voice" and "The Multiracial Activist." There are plenty of crazy black-identified folks out there who will do any thing to silence those who publicly oppose forced "black" identity.
Thank you so much A.D. You are our hero. One of the few in history who had the courage and the fortitude to stand against the tide of oppression.
How is it that you don't already know this? My articles and essays have been posted for years on the internet.
Hail!
What have YOU done to fight the ODR supported by your beloved blacks?
She's done nothing!
What have YOU written?
She's written nothing!
I never heard of you before this forum, yet you dare to ask what [b]I have done??!! That is a damned insult, given my public work and what I have endured.[/b]
Hail!!
The Multiracial Movement PROVED that blacks are the moral authority behind the ODR. I have seen no evidence that most "whites" are interested in supporting the ODR or fighting to maintain it.
Hail!!
Those "whites" who have supported the ODR by condemning Anatole Broyard and others accused of "passing" are usually LIBERALS and see their condemnation as anti-racist support of blacks.
Damn right they are!
If black leaders start supporting freedom of choice in racial identity and denounce the "racial kidnapping" of historical figures, I will be among the first to condemn any "whites" who stand in opposition.
Me too!
Blacks are the cornerstone of the ODR house.
Yep!
You want me to criticize forced racial identity without making blacks look bad? Maybe someone will write a history of World War II without making Germans and Japanese look bad.
'
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. According to recent research 55% of Americans reject the ODR. How about that? Now you tell me Sag, why is it that Blacks so ardently claim that the ODR is universal? I have not heard one white person say this, not even the nazis. Please tell me.
, I am not questioning or challenging A.D. loyalty work ethic or dedication to the multiracial movement. I am questioning the effectiveness of these confrontational, angry and demonization tactics I see her employing. I seem to have hit a nerve, which in my profession experience leads me to believe we actually might get somewhere after all of the chest-thumping and indignant outrage is over with. I am truly interested in helping to solve this problem and help USAmericans who feel threatened by the multiracial label and personal identity choice overcome their fears. I believe that all of this oppression-based rhetoric distracts from doing the hard work of persuasion and negotiation. Anyone who has actually solved a difficult people problem without dropping an atom bomb on the opposition might agree (and perhaps even many who did drop the bomb, after the fact).
