Despite such politically correct derision and media-stereotyping, I think in fact that mixed-looking people are prefered over black-looking people. I say this for two reasons. In my observation...
1. Mixed males are over-represented in modeling.
2. Mixed females are very much over-representing in modeling.
3. Mixed people in general are considered attractive in popular perception as can be found by reading magazine articles, newspapers, and internet blogs wherein mixed people are discussed.
Remember, at the time the current generation of young adult mixed-race americans was born, mixed people made up only 2% of the US population. Therefore, you can see that there is significant over-representation..not under representation. Also, something similar seems to be occuring with "asians".
Lighter skin is almost always preferred which is why certain things are said the way they are.
Not as much in our times. Especially men. Darker skinned AA men, swarthy Italians, tanned beach boys etc etc
For men being darker is better. Darker African descendant American men are prefered over lighter skinned ones.
]
Dark skin is often viewed as more macho. The Italian Stallion, the Latin lover and the fact that light skinned AA men hardly get virile roles in the movies or on TV.
It appears as if the AA ideal will be Denzil Washington with Sanaa Latham.
Right, Denzel has a different appeal because he's dark but not too dark, and his features wouldn't be considered negroid. Plus most women find him attractive.
But as a whole darker skinned men are the ideal. I will go further to say that in the last 10 years I've seen way too many pairings of black men(darker skinned) and white women.
The sexuality of the Nubile Mandingo was always a topic of interest for white america from Science, religion and smutt.
I am not so sure I am willing to believe that African American/Multi-cultural/Caucasian/Asian/Latin/Indian women stick by their "Visual Preference" as much as their "Personality/Economic Preference" and even that tends to fall short.
Ah it depends. Dealing with Denzel, he is a movie star, who plays roles that women find appealing. which fall in line with the Personality/Economic preference. Women aren't asexual, they may not have the same degree of visual stimulation men have, but they are attracted to what they see as well.
There was a study do on womens attraction to Money vs a man looks.
They brought in about 10-20 women to rate about 6 men based on attraction. Man #1 was about 6'1' only a high school diploma and worked construction Man #6 was about 5'8 regular build a little stomach, college graduate and 6 figures. Surprisingly the women were drawn to the men closer to Man #1 than man #6.
Another study done dealt with changes during the biological year for women in which their attraction become more 'animal' which revolved around the subject of men caring for children that might not be theirs.
They said for the most part women are trained and is 'biological' to be drawn to men that can take care of them. The training says: job shelter car etc etc but the animal side that kicks in during certain female cycles said broad shoulders, tall, big hands, deep expressive eyes.
I'll have to pull those 2 up and redo this post. I have a latina friend who is seriously attracted to a mans eyebrows. Not his wallet.
Most tall females might say that the guy must be tall but beyond that, the complexion, race, body type, and looks is almost always inconsistent with the bros they end up dating and getting serious with.
Females for the most part are not the aggressors (although there are some sexy Latinas that go for what they want and that is a very very good thing).
Right, they may not be the aggressors. But they don't accept what they don't want either. She does the leading.
They can only respond to the scraps that come their way. I don't know if any guys ever ran into a couple of their exes after five or more years and see the guys they are dating or guys they ended up with, after of course they told you while you were an item that they are only into a certain type of guy?
Not too long ago I tried to play match maker with a brown skinned co-worker (mid 50's) around my mothers age and an older guy(African American mid 50's) I know in Brooklyn since I thought they had some things in common. Her response was he's really handsome but I don't date light skin men. I was in shock, I had to ask "How is it that 3 out of 4 of your children are so bright yellow (including one with blue/gray eyes)? And she is like their father was light.
Her response could have been in reaction to being hurt by the father. A lot of people do that, men and women, when they are hurt in relationships may run far away from someone who looks like the one that hurt them. Those have to be taken person by person.
So I refuse to believe the "Darker the Berry Preference" has much more validity than being the bizarrely politically correct African American response over the apparent preference females have for men that make them feel secure.
I agree, it is just a esteem buffer. But many people are trained to want what they see on tv movies or magazines.
We can take the statement you just made and apply it to men. Most men don't end up with Playboy bunnies, but most men are exposed to nude women via magazines, weither it's Playboy or Sports Illustrated.
A man does not need stimulation beyond what he sees, anything else is a bonus.
Women tend to see men in situations which brings about attraction: Men in Uniform for example. Movies and tv shows play a big part in that. My mom talked about becoming more attracted to my dad when he grew out his mustach like Tom Selleck ie Magnum PI.
Despite such politically correct derision and media-stereotyping, I think in fact that mixed-looking people are prefered over black-looking people. I say this for two reasons. In my observation...
1. Mixed males are over-represented in modeling.
I can prove thats wrong just by pulling up modelling agencies websites.
Most modelling agencies do not have many people of color modelling for them. Name 5 mixed male models off the top of your head. But I bet you could name 5 female models easily. The most popular male models hmmm most are never known by name. Tyson Beckford is probably the most known male model: mixed(not mulatto) MGM and dark skinned.
2. Mixed females are very much over-representing in modeling.
African models are probably equally represented or more so than mixed female models. And with those 2 groups, they are a drop in the bucket of WASP female models.
Naomi (mixed/non biracial) but dark skinned is the most famous model out there with staying power. In the era of SuperModels(80's) there were no 'light complexioned or biracial female models in the group' Tyra never reached the peak that Naomi has.
3. Mixed people in general are considered attractive in popular perception as can be found by reading magazine articles, newspapers, and internet blogs wherein mixed people are discussed.
That's not entirely true, people tend to be more attracted to what's popular when it comes to the fashion world. Models who look sickly? mixed models aren't overrunning the runway at all. Wasp looking models are still dominate and predominate. I've found more dark skinned African looking female models in European magazines that mixed models.
Remember, at the time the current generation of young adult mixed-race americans was born, mixed people made up only 2% of the US population. Therefore, you can see that there is significant over-representation..not under representation. Also, something similar seems to be occuring with "asians".
Here is the Supermodel pack of the 80's, they were everywhere in videos photoshoots you name it...
Linda Evangelista, Cindy Crawford, Naomi Campbell, Elaine Irwin, Christy Turlington
Remember, at the time the current generation of young adult mixed-race americans was born, mixed people made up only 2% of the US population.
You can't go by this because there are many more mixed people than those who declare a mixed identity officially. If we are talking visual only (which you seem to be based on your argument) then I would argue that they are underrepresented, perhaps even in Latino publications. Asians and Native Americans are also underrepresented in USAmerican media.
I think that the psychological basis of attraction is being overlooked. The power dynamic has also shifted between men and women - women who are economically independent do not require a mate that can provide for them. I am not sure that the female urge to find a man to take care of them is biological at all. It seems to me that the urge to find a man whose genes they wish to reproduce is much stronger. Add the psychological component to it, plus the effects of patriarchy and I'd almost argue that women have been going against their biological urges for quite a while.
Remember, at the time the current generation of young adult mixed-race americans was born, mixed people made up only 2% of the US population.
You can't go by this because there are many more mixed people than those who declare a mixed identity officially. If we are talking visual only (which you seem to be based on your argument) then I would argue that they are underrepresented, perhaps even in Latino publications. Asians and Native Americans are also underrepresented in USAmerican media.
I think that the psychological basis of attraction is being overlooked. The power dynamic has also shifted between men and women - women who are economically independent do not require a mate that can provide for them. I am not sure that the female urge to find a man to take care of them is biological at all. It seems to me that the urge to find a man whose genes they wish to reproduce is much stronger.
That's the part I meant to bring up. In the study done, I was refering too, they said many women deal with the social idea of finding a mate but 'finding a man whose genes..." is the part the study wanted to bring to light. Biologically women would be attracted to more healthier looking men, taller, a bit more fit. They brought up various male bodyparts that women tend to draw to physically: hands shoulders, height facial proportions. They said there are more men than realized who are probably raising kids that are not their own (the study was about the difference in sexual drive between men and women: men & women who 'cheat' and some other things.
Add the psychological component to it, plus the effects of patriarchy and I'd almost argue that women have been going against their biological urges for quite a while.
Despite such politically correct derision and media-stereotyping, I think in fact that mixed-looking people are prefered over black-looking people. I say this for two reasons. In my observation...
1. Mixed males are over-represented in modeling.
I can prove thats wrong just by pulling up modelling agencies websites.
Most modelling agencies do not have many people of color modelling for them. Name 5 mixed male models off the top of your head. But I bet you could name 5 female models easily. The most popular male models hmmm most are never known by name. Tyson Beckford is probably the most known male model: mixed(not mulatto) MGM and dark skinned.
2. Mixed females are very much over-representing in modeling.
African models are probably equally represented or more so than mixed female models. And with those 2 groups, they are a drop in the bucket of WASP female models.
Naomi (mixed/non biracial) but dark skinned is the most famous model out there with staying power. In the era of SuperModels(80's) there were no 'light complexioned or biracial female models in the group' Tyra never reached the peak that Naomi has.
3. Mixed people in general are considered attractive in popular perception as can be found by reading magazine articles, newspapers, and internet blogs wherein mixed people are discussed.
That's not entirely true, people tend to be more attracted to what's popular when it comes to the fashion world. Models who look sickly? mixed models aren't overrunning the runway at all. Wasp looking models are still dominate and predominate. I've found more dark skinned African looking female models in European magazines that mixed models.
Remember, at the time the current generation of young adult mixed-race americans was born, mixed people made up only 2% of the US population. Therefore, you can see that there is significant over-representation..not under representation. Also, something similar seems to be occuring with "asians".
Here is the Supermodel pack of the 80's, they were everywhere in videos photoshoots you name it...
Linda Evangelista, Cindy Crawford, Naomi Campbell, Elaine Irwin, Christy Turlington
Proves nothing because you have FAR TOO FEW PEOPLE HERE. Also, you forgot veronica webb, who was a mulatta supermodel in the 1980s.
Remember, at the time the current generation of young adult mixed-race americans was born, mixed people made up only 2% of the US population.
You can't go by this because there are many more mixed people than those who declare a mixed identity officially. If we are talking visual only (which you seem to be based on your argument) then I would argue that they are underrepresented, perhaps even in Latino publications. Asians and Native Americans are also underrepresented in USAmerican media.
Except that I didn't use self-reported identity. I used extrapolations from the b/w intermarriage rate.
That's the first point. Here's the second....
I didn't say that mulattos are over-represented in the past. I said they over-represented NOW, as in the last 10 years or so. And really, perhaps even the last 15. Now, a question for you: Have you looked at the mixed-race beauty pageant winners???? Here, let me list a few....
Miss America 1984 - Vanessa Williams
Miss America 1990 - Debbye Turner
Miss_America 1994 - Kimberly Aiken
Miss United States 2002 - Rebekah Revels
And that's not even counting the state winners. Now, lets think about this...
Blacks ==> 12% of the population
Mulattos==> 2% of the population
Whites===> 80% of the population
40 times as many White winners? Probably even less!
But can you find me 6 times as many black winners?
Remember, at the time the current generation of young adult mixed-race americans was born, mixed people made up only 2% of the US population.
You can't go by this because there are many more mixed people than those who declare a mixed identity officially. If we are talking visual only (which you seem to be based on your argument) then I would argue that they are underrepresented, perhaps even in Latino publications. Asians and Native Americans are also underrepresented in USAmerican media.
Except that I didn't use self-reported identity. I used extrapolations from the b/w intermarriage rate.
That's the first point. Here's the second....
I didn't say that mulattos are over-represented in the past. I said they over-represented NOW, as in the last 10 years or so. And really, perhaps even the last 15. Now, a question for you: Have you looked at the mixed-race beauty pageant winners???? Here, let me list a few....
Miss America 1984 - Vanessa Williams
Miss America 1990 - Debbye Turner
Miss_America 1994 - Kimberly Aiken
Miss United States 2002 - Rebekah Revels
And that's not even counting the state winners. Now, lets think about this...
Blacks ==> 12% of the population
Mulattos==> 2% of the population
Whites===> 80% of the population
40 times as many White winners? Probably even less!
But can you find me 6 times as many black winners?
Before U jump to the Miss America which is a totally different arena.
Let's get back to the statements you made about mixed women/mulattos overrepresented in the modeling world. I responded to some of the points you made. And I still don't agree.
Remember, at the time the current generation of young adult mixed-race americans was born, mixed people made up only 2% of the US population.
You can't go by this because there are many more mixed people than those who declare a mixed identity officially. If we are talking visual only (which you seem to be based on your argument) then I would argue that they are underrepresented, perhaps even in Latino publications. Asians and Native Americans are also underrepresented in USAmerican media.
Except that I didn't use self-reported identity. I used extrapolations from the b/w intermarriage rate.
That's the first point. Here's the second....
I didn't say that mulattos are over-represented in the past. I said they over-represented NOW, as in the last 10 years or so. And really, perhaps even the last 15. Now, a question for you: Have you looked at the mixed-race beauty pageant winners???? Here, let me list a few....
Miss America 1984 - Vanessa Williams
Miss America 1990 - Debbye Turner
Miss_America 1994 - Kimberly Aiken
Miss United States 2002 - Rebekah Revels
And that's not even counting the state winners. Now, lets think about this...
Blacks ==> 12% of the population
Mulattos==> 2% of the population
Whites===> 80% of the population
40 times as many White winners? Probably even less!
But can you find me 6 times as many black winners?
Before U jump to the Miss America which is a totally different arena.
Let's get back to the statements you made about mixed women/mulattos overrepresented in the modeling world. I responded to some of the points you made. And I still don't agree.
Oh ho! But beauty pageants ARE modeling!
I refuse. You cannot seperate modeling in beauty pageants from modeling in general and then make reference to modeling once again. You have to be more specific if you want to do that. So then, what kind of modeling do you want to talk about???
- Pageantry
- Fashion-runway
- Fashion magazine
- TV Advertising
I win the pageantry contest hands down. Do you concede? That leaves three others to debate over, unless you can think of some other kind of Modeling I have left out here. Im open to that.
Also, you did not adequately respond to my points. You used an implicit strawman argument which was:
"mulattos are over-represented in the modeling world, therefore they must be conspicuous in a congregation of major models"
Not true. Not what I said. Also pay careful attention to my words, because I started off by saying --->
IN MY OBSERVATION....
Therefore I am not required to prove any of my statements are true. But if you would like to establish that my observation does not reflect reality, then you need to show that fewer than 2% of models are mulattos.
1. By why do you want to prove me wrong?
2. Doesn't your observation match mine?
3. Have you looked at a fashion magazine recently?
4. Have you looked at television recently?
5. Are you considering that darker mulattos make up a third or so of
African Americans?
Despite such politically correct derision and media-stereotyping, I think in fact that mixed-looking people are prefered over black-looking people. I say this for two reasons. In my observation...
1. Mixed males are over-represented in modeling.
I can prove thats wrong just by pulling up modelling agencies websites.
Most modelling agencies do not have many people of color modelling for them. Name 5 mixed male models off the top of your head. But I bet you could name 5 female models easily. The most popular male models hmmm most are never known by name. Tyson Beckford is probably the most known male model: mixed(not mulatto) MGM and dark skinned.
2. Mixed females are very much over-representing in modeling.
African models are probably equally represented or more so than mixed female models. And with those 2 groups, they are a drop in the bucket of WASP female models.
Naomi (mixed/non biracial) but dark skinned is the most famous model out there with staying power. In the era of SuperModels(80's) there were no 'light complexioned or biracial female models in the group' Tyra never reached the peak that Naomi has.
3. Mixed people in general are considered attractive in popular perception as can be found by reading magazine articles, newspapers, and internet blogs wherein mixed people are discussed.
That's not entirely true, people tend to be more attracted to what's popular when it comes to the fashion world. Models who look sickly? mixed models aren't overrunning the runway at all. Wasp looking models are still dominate and predominate. I've found more dark skinned African looking female models in European magazines that mixed models.
Remember, at the time the current generation of young adult mixed-race americans was born, mixed people made up only 2% of the US population. Therefore, you can see that there is significant over-representation..not under representation. Also, something similar seems to be occuring with "asians".
Here is the Supermodel pack of the 80's, they were everywhere in videos photoshoots you name it...
Linda Evangelista, Cindy Crawford, Naomi Campbell, Elaine Irwin, Christy Turlington
Proves nothing because you have FAR TOO FEW PEOPLE HERE. Also, you forgot veronica webb, who was a mulatta supermodel in the 1980s.
yes she was but she wasn't close to the class of these 5 I've shown, who were everywhere. She didn't come close to Naomi, nor is she known in the same way. Also I'm just starting this so I'm not going to have every model in this one post. As well I started with these #1 Supermodels because they Defined the supermodel era. They were everywhere. And non were 'mulatta' nor light skinned black. Naomi made people recognize dark skin. Roshumba was a supermodel too during that time.
Last edited by gemini072 on Fri 20 Jun 2008 01:29; edited 1 time in total
"yes she was but she wasn't close to the class of these 5 I've shown, who were everywhere. She didn't come close to Naomi, nor is she known in the same way. Roshumba was a supermodel too during that time."
I said mulattos were over-represented, in my observation. I did not say they were the most famous. Remember, 2% of the population. Youre going to have to show a lot more famous models than that to prove your point. Consider for example, that although Jews are supposedly over-represented in all areas of Media, the top 10 news casters are not Jews as far as I am aware. You see why you need to present more cases then?
Also, you have not told me which type of modeling you would like to discuss, so I will chose for you then. We will discuss magazine fashion modeling.
I think a good idea would be a random experiment using magazines such as vogue, 17, or Fashion. Look through all of the adds and eyeball the models. This should be done for the top 10 such fashion magazines.
How much do you want to bet that over 2% of the models are mulattos for both males and females?
Remember, at the time the current generation of young adult mixed-race americans was born, mixed people made up only 2% of the US population.
You can't go by this because there are many more mixed people than those who declare a mixed identity officially. If we are talking visual only (which you seem to be based on your argument) then I would argue that they are underrepresented, perhaps even in Latino publications. Asians and Native Americans are also underrepresented in USAmerican media.
Except that I didn't use self-reported identity. I used extrapolations from the b/w intermarriage rate.
That's the first point. Here's the second....
I didn't say that mulattos are over-represented in the past. I said they over-represented NOW, as in the last 10 years or so. And really, perhaps even the last 15. Now, a question for you: Have you looked at the mixed-race beauty pageant winners???? Here, let me list a few....
Miss America 1984 - Vanessa Williams
Miss America 1990 - Debbye Turner
Miss_America 1994 - Kimberly Aiken
Miss United States 2002 - Rebekah Revels
And that's not even counting the state winners. Now, lets think about this...
Blacks ==> 12% of the population
Mulattos==> 2% of the population
Whites===> 80% of the population
40 times as many White winners? Probably even less!
But can you find me 6 times as many black winners?
Before U jump to the Miss America which is a totally different arena.
Let's get back to the statements you made about mixed women/mulattos overrepresented in the modeling world. I responded to some of the points you made. And I still don't agree.
Oh ho! But beauty pageants ARE modeling!
I refuse. You cannot seperate modeling in beauty pageants from modeling in general and then make reference to modeling once again. You have to be more specific if you want to do that. So then, what kind of modeling do you want to talk about???
what? It was clear that you were dealing with a certain type of modelling because MEN are not Miss Americas? And yes you can seperate them, because they are based on many different qualifications. In a pageant only one comes out on top over many who came out on top for their state. It all depends on who runs for the state pageant. One year you could have 10 blacks and 1 mulatto out of the whole country. the next year you could have 8 mulattas and 2 blacks.
IMBACK Wrote:
1. Mixed males are over-represented in modeling.
2. Mixed females are very much over-representing in modeling.
3. Mixed people in general are considered attractive in popular perception as can be found by reading magazine articles, newspapers, and internet blogs wherein mixed people are discussed.
Pageants are very different from modeling and should be a totally different topic. But we can discuss them. Just make sure we don't mix the two.
- Pageantry
- Fashion-runway
- Fashion magazine
- TV Advertising
I win the pageantry contest hands down. Do you concede?
No, not yet, I'm not a big pageant follower. So give me a day.
That leaves three others to debate over, unless you can think of some other kind of Modeling I have left out here. Im open to that.
Also, you did not adequately respond to my points. You used an implicit strawman argument which was:
"mulattos are over-represented in the modeling world, therefore they must be conspicuous in a congregation of major models"
huh? Where did I say that?
Not true. Not what I said. Also pay careful attention to my words, because I started off by saying --->
IN MY OBSERVATION....
Therefore I am not required to prove any of my statements are true. But if you would like to establish that my observation does not reflect reality, then you need to show that fewer than 2% of models are mulattos.
1. By why do you want to prove me wrong? I'm not trying to prove you wrong, but I've been following that world prob. a lot longer than you 80's? And I did a stint in modelling myself and there are all types.
2. Doesn't your observation match mine?
3. Have you looked at a fashion magazine recently? tones of them
4. Have you looked at television recently? what world do you live in?
5. Are you considering that darker mulattos make up a third or so of
African Americans?
Last edited by gemini072 on Thu 19 Jun 2008 03:17; edited 1 time in total
"yes she was but she wasn't close to the class of these 5 I've shown, who were everywhere. She didn't come close to Naomi, nor is she known in the same way. Roshumba was a supermodel too during that time."
I said mulattos were over-represented, in my observation. I did not say they were the most famous. Remember, 2% of the population. Youre going to have to show a lot more famous models than that to prove your point. Consider for example, that although Jews are supposedly over-represented in all areas of Media, the top 10 news casters are not Jews as far as I am aware. You see why you need to present more cases then?
Also, you have not told me which type of modeling you would like to discuss, so I will chose for you then. We will discuss magazine fashion modeling.
I think a good idea would be a random experiment using magazines such as vogue, 17, or Fashion. Look through all of the adds and eyeball the models. This should be done for the top 10 such fashion magazines.
How much do you want to bet that over 2% of the models are mulattos for both males and females?
Before we go any further with this I'm going to split the topic and deliver it to Popular Culture.
Posted: Thu 19 Jun 2008 03:21 Post subject: Miss America Pageant 1999-2008
Year Miss America State Represented
1999 Nicole Johnson Roanoke, Virginia
2000 Heather French Augusta, Kentucky
2001 Angela Perez Baraquio Honolulu, Hawaii (Hawaiian)
2002 Katie Harman Gresham, Oregon
2003 Erika Harold Urbana, Illinois (Biracial) 2004 Ericka Dunlap Orlando, Florida (Black)
2005 Deidre Downs Birmingham, Alabama
2006 Jennifer Berry Tulsa, Oklahoma
2007 Lauren Nelson Lawton, Oklahoma
2008 Kirsten Haglund Farmington Hills, Michigan
All the other as far as I know are 'white'
Last edited by gemini072 on Fri 20 Jun 2008 13:03; edited 1 time in total
Remember, at the time the current generation of young adult mixed-race americans was born, mixed people made up only 2% of the US population.
You can't go by this because there are many more mixed people than those who declare a mixed identity officially. If we are talking visual only (which you seem to be based on your argument) then I would argue that they are underrepresented, perhaps even in Latino publications. Asians and Native Americans are also underrepresented in USAmerican media.
Except that I didn't use self-reported identity. I used extrapolations from the b/w intermarriage rate.
That's the first point. Here's the second....
I didn't say that mulattos are over-represented in the past. I said they over-represented NOW, as in the last 10 years or so. And really, perhaps even the last 15. Now, a question for you: Have you looked at the mixed-race beauty pageant winners???? Here, let me list a few....
Miss America 1984 - Vanessa Williams
Miss America 1990 - Debbye Turner
Miss_America 1994 - Kimberly Aiken
Miss United States 2002 - Rebekah Revels
And that's not even counting the state winners. Now, lets think about this...
Blacks ==> 12% of the population
Mulattos==> 2% of the population
Whites===> 80% of the population
40 times as many White winners? Probably even less!
But can you find me 6 times as many black winners?
1. Decide whether your analysis will be based on self-reported labeling, ancestry, visual cues or something else. Vanessa Williams, Debbie Turner and others are part of the 12% of Blacks who are underrepresented in the media, not part of the 2% that are also underrepresented in the media (using your own stated position). My point remains that mulattos are far more than 2% of the population in actuality (based on actual admixture/ancestry of the US population) but perhaps not in terms of self-identification. You are getting mixed up in your own constructs because they are not clearly defined or used to intepret the data correctly.
2. Let's say there are at least 300 pageant winners over the last hundred years, 3 major contests per year (Miss America, Miss USA, Mrs. America). How many could be eyeballed as having SSA ancestry? The change in the last 10 years is the ability to REPORT a percentage of individuals who identify as mixed, not their existence or representation in the media. This position is ridiculous.
3. Please be clear that my position is that no one with visible and significant SSA, Native American or East Asian ancestry is overrepresented in the US media. I have seen no evidence that contradicts this position and am not interested in arguing back and forth about the minute slice of the pie reserved for the representation of non-White/non-European phenotypes. It amounts to being happy you have more crumbs or mad that you don't have enough crumbs. When looking at the entire pie, there is a lot of room from improvement.
"1. Decide whether your analysis will be based on self-reported labeling, ancestry, visual cues or something else. Vanessa Williams, Debbie Turner and others are part of the 12% of Blacks who are underrepresented in the media, not part of the 2% that are also underrepresented in the media (using your own stated position)."
Absolutely not. You are conflating measurement methods. I am using "eye-balling" to determine who is mixed and who is not. Therefore Turner and Williams are in fact part of the 2% of Mulattos who are over-represented. As I said. Now, I determined the number of mulattos in existence by extrapolating from the black-white intermarriage rate. This is the only statistical technique that makes any sense because I can't find reliable genetic data on the population structure of "Black" Americans.
"My point remains that mulattos are far more than 2% of the population in actuality (based on actual admixture/ancestry of the US population) but perhaps not in terms of self-identification."
1. True, but only for the younger generation of under 20-year olds. When you add these people in the Mulatto population rises to around 5%.
2. This doesn't help you as far as my argument goes.
"You are getting mixed up in your own constructs because they are not clearly defined or used to intepret the data correctly."
In fact the problem is that you misunderstand my methodology.
"2. Let's say there are at least 300 pageant winners over the last hundred years, 3 major contests per year (Miss America, Miss USA, Mrs. America). How many could be eyeballed as having SSA ancestry?"
Well let's see now. I went through almost EVERY SINGLE WINNER IN THE HISTORY OF BEAUTY PAGEANTS and there are I believe five from the American contests who are part SSA. Now do the math:
5 * 50 = 250 Winners.
You need more than 250 Winners overal to prove my position is mistaken. Can you do that? I don't think so because there havent even been 250 winners. None of the pageants has been around more than 60 years. 60*3 = 180.
"The change in the last 10 years is the ability to REPORT a percentage of individuals who identify as mixed, not their existence or representation in the media. This position is ridiculous."
Nope. Strawman. My evidence is not based on self-reporting.
Look, let's just end this okay. I don't want to argue with you anymore and you admitted that this is rather silly in the scheme of things and would rather not argue with me either.
1. I presented a personal opinion based on my observation.
2. You disagreed and presented non-evidence.
3. I presented some evidence that I was correct, but did not conclusively
establish my position.
4. You disagreed with my methodology (were confused?) and decided not
to respond to my evidence.
What is the point? Either you are going to disprove my evidence, which you could easily do by counting up the number of Winners and showing that my 2% figure is mistaken, or you are not. You could also go through a magazine or two and show that there is good reason to think that mulattos are quite under-represented in magazine-fashion modeling.
You haven't done either of those things. So forget it. You aren't serious about proving me wrong and I am not serious about proving myself right.
I rest my case. Think as you please. Im disengaging from this.
Posted: Fri 20 Jun 2008 01:16 Post subject: Versace Models
Most of the models for Versace have been Italian/Sicilian or ethnic european. Naomi Campbell has been the only "black" model of Versace.
And this takes us back to the post of the 5 SuperStar Supermodels during Gianni Versaces lead. Gianni featured a lot of dark compexioned models though.
Of course famous people have modelled their clothes, but that's different.
Despite such politically correct derision and media-stereotyping, I think in fact that mixed-looking people are prefered over black-looking people. I say this for two reasons. In my observation...
1. Mixed males are over-represented in modeling.
I can prove thats wrong just by pulling up modelling agencies websites.
Most modelling agencies do not have many people of color modelling for them. Name 5 mixed male models off the top of your head. But I bet you could name 5 female models easily. The most popular male models hmmm most are never known by name. Tyson Beckford is probably the most known male model: mixed(not mulatto) MGM and dark skinned.
2. Mixed females are very much over-representing in modeling.
African models are probably equally represented or more so than mixed female models. And with those 2 groups, they are a drop in the bucket of WASP female models.
Naomi (mixed/non biracial) but dark skinned is the most famous model out there with staying power. In the era of SuperModels(80's) there were no 'light complexioned or biracial female models in the group' Tyra never reached the peak that Naomi has.
3. Mixed people in general are considered attractive in popular perception as can be found by reading magazine articles, newspapers, and internet blogs wherein mixed people are discussed.
That's not entirely true, people tend to be more attracted to what's popular when it comes to the fashion world. Models who look sickly? mixed models aren't overrunning the runway at all. Wasp looking models are still dominate and predominate. I've found more dark skinned African looking female models in European magazines that mixed models.
Remember, at the time the current generation of young adult mixed-race americans was born, mixed people made up only 2% of the US population. Therefore, you can see that there is significant over-representation..not under representation. Also, something similar seems to be occuring with "asians".
Here is the Supermodel pack of the 80's, they were everywhere in videos photoshoots you name it...
Linda Evangelista, Cindy Crawford, Naomi Campbell, Elaine Irwin, Christy Turlington
The brunette with the mole in the steamy bath is CINDY CRAWFORD.
The serenely smoking blonde is Germany's TATJANA PATITZ.
The Afro-English model with the pouty lips and not much to do is NAOMI CAMPBELL.
The doe-eyed brunette who seems to poke her finger with the needle is CHRISTY TURLINGTON.
The short-haired blonde who pulls the sweater over her head is LINDA EVANGELISTA.
Absolutely not. You are conflating measurement methods. I am using "eye-balling" to determine who is mixed and who is not. Therefore Turner and Williams are in fact part of the 2% of Mulattos who are over-represented. As I said. Now, I determined the number of mulattos in existence by extrapolating from the black-white intermarriage rate. This is the only statistical technique that makes any sense because I can't find reliable genetic data on the population structure of "Black" Americans.
Then your methodology (rather, your operational definition of "mixed") has a serious flaw: Your extrapolation does not seem to take into account that 1) not all marriages result in live births 2) not all babies reach adult age to participate in pageants 3) not all babies are produced in marriages (especially not mixed A/E babies) 4) at least half of your phantom sample is likely comprised of males, who do not participate in pageants 5) you cannot include mixed folks who do not have one White and one Black parent, eliminating at least a third of your examples and maybe more (I'm not sure which of these ladies have cross-colorline parents).
The way you are approaching this at the moment has serious validity issues.
Now if you tell me that the 2% you came up with passes those tests then we can discuss the findings. Right now it appears that you are not calculating what say you are nor do you have consistency in your definitions.
Quote:
Well let's see now. I went through almost EVERY SINGLE WINNER IN THE HISTORY OF BEAUTY PAGEANTS and there are I believe five from the American contests who are part SSA. Now do the math:
How many of those women are not part of the 2% phantom sample of the offspring of B-W couples? I count at least 3 who have 2 Black parents.
Quote:
You need more than 250 Winners overal to prove my position is mistaken. Can you do that? I don't think so because there havent even been 250 winners. None of the pageants has been around more than 60 years. 60*3 = 180.
Your position is mistaken due to logic, not math. But your math is also suspect. I gave a hypothetical. Realistically the sample is undefined and needs to be validated with actual pageant names, contestants, and parentage. You haven't done that. Once you have let's look at the math.
Quote:
Nope. Strawman. My evidence is not based on self-reporting.
You're right. At least with self-report data you'd have a leg to stand on with this, though the persistance of many mixed people to self-identify as Black throws a monkey wrench in your approach.
Your best bet is eyeballing or genetic admixture data. Extrapolating from marriage rates is not a good approach since there are hard data on births and racial classification available.
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hmmm most are never known by name. Tyson Beckford is probably the most known male model: mixed(not mulatto) MGM and dark skinned.
