Posted: Mon 16 Jun 2008 01:01 Post subject: My friend thinks she doesn't have African heritage.
My friend thinks she doesn't have African heritage.
So me and a friend were chatting on msn the other day. I mention the book, Right to Rock, to her, and then she tells me that she doesn't think she is 'black'. Now I concede in what she says, because I don't use the term 'black' to describe my ethnicity, though many people think that it accurately does describe it. To me, black is sort of a political term that has been used to describe people that have African-derived features. And usually, its used in America as opposed to Canada, where its more of a Carribean, African category. Now, she continues to explain her case by stating that her ancestry is composed of spanish, panamian, brazilian, ect. Me , knowing this, I tell her, there is no way or at least it was a mistake telling me that she had brazilian , or panamian relatives. Right there , that tells me she has African-ancestry, even based on her looks. Then I explain to her that white and the black relationship , is not the same in America as it is in Brazil. That people who term themselves white in Brazil or The carribean, can very well have AFrican-derived ancestors. She went ape-shit on me.
Now, I have a question for everyone here: Do you think its possible not to have African ancestors but still look like your a full-blown black girl, and even have a parent that was born in Jamaica? Personally, I think she's playing around with me and that there is some form of denial. I don't know too much about the demographics of Jamaica, but looking at her parents, and then looking at her, I realize that one time along the line, there had to be at least one African-derived relative. She also mentions that her dad is half-white. I don't really get it. lol.
Joined: 10 Aug 2006 {Posts: 110 } Location: Somewhere...
Posted: Sat 21 Jun 2008 14:11 Post subject:
I would like a little clarification. Did your friend claim that she was not of African descent or not 'black'? There is sometimes a difference to people.
As just because a person is Panamanian or Brazilian does not mean that they are of African heritage. Also, just because you are born in Jamaica does not mean that you must be of African descent. It's highly likely but may not be so. The same goes for Panama and Brazil, both of whom have larger populations that may not be of African descent...
I would like a little clarification. Did your friend claim that she was not of African descent or not 'black'? There is sometimes a difference to people.
As just because a person is Panamanian or Brazilian does not mean that they are of African heritage. Also, just because you are born in Jamaica does not mean that you must be of African descent. It's highly likely but may not be so. The same goes for Panama and Brazil, both of whom have larger populations that may not be of African descent...
I would like a little clarification. Did your friend claim that she was not of African descent or not 'black'? There is sometimes a difference to people.
As just because a person is Panamanian or Brazilian does not mean that they are of African heritage. Also, just because you are born in Jamaica does not mean that you must be of African descent. It's highly likely but may not be so. The same goes for Panama and Brazil, both of whom have larger populations that may not be of African descent...
If I showed you a picture of her, you'd probably think she was of African Descent, as well as other cultures. Though, I dont really know myself. By her looks, and the fact that she says she has relatives from those countries, right there raises the possibilities. Lol, we haven't talked since then, and I'm not going toeven try. Now, I think she was denying African descent. My question was could someone look like what you'd term a 'black' person, say they have relatives in these countries, and still deny their African descent.
Joined: 26 May 2007 {Posts: 394 } Location: San Antonio, Texas
Posted: Sun 22 Jun 2008 16:02 Post subject:
gs56ca wrote:
My question was could someone look like what you'd term a 'black' person, say they have relatives in these countries, and still deny their African descent.
Yep, I see it all the time - I've seen many Puerto Ricans and Cubans claim to be part Italian, and use that to explain their darker skin and/or curly hair. They seem to think they're fooling someone, when their features are FAR more pronounced than any "full-blooded" Italian.
Mi piace il fatto che posso facere qualcosa che questi italiani falsi non possono!
I would like a little clarification. Did your friend claim that she was not of African descent or not 'black'? There is sometimes a difference to people.
As just because a person is Panamanian or Brazilian does not mean that they are of African heritage. Also, just because you are born in Jamaica does not mean that you must be of African descent. It's highly likely but may not be so. The same goes for Panama and Brazil, both of whom have larger populations that may not be of African descent...
If I showed you a picture of her, you'd probably think she was of African Descent, as well as other cultures. Though, I dont really know myself. By her looks, and the fact that she says she has relatives from those countries, right there raises the possibilities. Lol, we haven't talked since then, and I'm not going toeven try. Now, I think she was denying African descent. My question was could someone look like what you'd term a 'black' person, say they have relatives in these countries, and still deny their African descent.
This "black" man, of no African ancestry, is mentioned elsewhere on this site, but I thought it would be relevant to bring it up here, as well.
Quote:
Man as 'black’for 50 years finds out he's probably not
( 2003-12-29 13:46) (Agencies)
Wayne Joseph, the principal of a big suburban high school in southern California, had an unequivocal sense of his black heritage, having written extensively about race in America.
But after seeing a TV story last April about a Florida company, DNA Print Genomics, which marketed an ancestry-by-DNA test, he began to wonder exactly how much of him was African, how much wasn't, and what else there might be in his genes.
"I sent away for their kit and received the kit, happened to swab both sides of my cheek and sent the swabs in," Joseph said.
A few weeks later, the results arrived at his comfortable Claremont, Calif., home.
"I just glanced at it, just a cursory glance initially — didn't really notice it much," Joseph said. "Then, I went back to it, because all of a sudden it hit me exactly what I had read. And it read, 57 percent Indo-European, 39 percent Native American, 4 percent East Asian and 0 percent African.
After a lifetime as a black man, Wayne Joseph discovered he probably isn't black at all. '
Complete Shock
"I kiddingly say, if I was 21 instead of 50, I'd be in therapy," Joseph said, "because when you define yourself one way and then at 50, there are results that say you're something else, it does rock your whole world.
It also rocked the world of Martin and Kenya, his kids from his first marriage — to a black woman.
"Honestly, I didn't know what to say," Kenya said. "I was in complete shock."
Joseph asked his mother, Betty, if he was adopted. "He is not adopted," she said. "Mother doesn't forget when she has a baby. And I had three babies. And he was one of them."
On both sides, the Joseph family is of Creole stock, which does not necessarily mean African ancestry. Yet, before DNA tests, in the segregated parishes of Louisiana they'd always defined themselves as black, or "colored" in the old-fashioned parlance, despite their light complexions.
Betty Joseph said at age 76, DNA results will not alter the way she's identified herself all her life. She is a black woman. Or so she insists.
"It's hard to break old habits at my age," Betty Joseph said.
But Wayne's kids seem to be doing a bit more identity searching.
"That really makes myself and my sister sit back and say, 'OK, what are we comprised of?'" Martin said.
"I think this opens up a lot of doors," Kenya said, "and forces people to look at things differently about how we classify people with regard to race."
Room for Doubt?
The DNA test is very sophisticated, but it is not accurate to the tiniest fraction of ancestral genes — which means in this case, maybe there's room for doubt.
"There are some people who have said to me, 'Oh, Wayne, you know, [you've] got to get retested. I mean, it can't be right,'" Joseph said. "And so my response to them is, 'OK, let's say I get retested, I come back 9 percent African, 10 percent African, so I'm back in the club now?'"
Instead, Joseph is focusing on one of the old South's most enduring legacies. The so-called "one drop" rule, "says that anyone who has one black ancestor or any black blood at all is considered black in this country," Joseph said.
"The interesting thing about it is the one-drop rule is a rule that was imposed by slave owners who did not want the white purity in some way blemished by black blood," Joseph added. "And we still, black people and white people in this country, still hold to that rule."
Some with black ancestors choose to identify themselves as white, thereby trying to avoid the racial penalties usually paid by African-Americans. It's an old and familiar theme in Hollywood in films like the latest of the genre, The Human Stain — in which a college professor with African genes lives as white and Jewish.
Only in an absurd farce, like The Jerk, does a white man identify himself as black, though, in a way, that is precisely what Wayne Joseph proudly, if unwittingly, did for the last 50 years. The question is, what does he do now?
Joseph's birth certificate says he was born in New Orleans, and lists his race and color as "Negro." And his life has been that of a black American — including his hair style as a college kid, which was about as close as he could get to an Afro.
He's had his exposure to racism as well.
"I've been called a n----r before by white kids," Joseph said. "I've experienced being rousted by the police, with some friends. I've had the so-called — if there are typical, you know — black experiences. I've had those."
And without having the chance to make a choice, he has passed on his pride in being a black man to his family.
"We were taught growing up to embrace our black heritage," Kenya said, "and really be proud of what that means, and the struggles that black people went through."
Ethnic Hodgepodge
Yet, Wayne Joseph did not espouse a black separatist ideology. His wife, Marcia, is white. They've been married for 17 years. The children have always lived with them and she helped raise them.
Martin is married to a woman whose ancestry is German and Hispanic, and they have a daughter, Stephanie, Wayne Joseph's only grandchild so far. Kenya, studying for an MBA, is married to a man of Mexican descent.
Wayne Joseph's circle of friends is a racial and ethnic hodgepodge many blacks and most whites do not have — though, they didn't quite get it when he told them about his DNA test after knowing him for so many years as an African-American.
In their close knit camaraderie, where one friend man named his son after Joseph, about the only difference they ever recognized is that Joseph doesn't put mustard on his hot dogs and he won't eat the icing on his cake. Is that racial?
"We should have known right then there was something wrong with him," a friend joked.
Who's Black? Who's White?
But all kidding aside, Joseph's DNA discovery raises a serious challenge to the way American culture seems to insist on a racial identity for everyone.
"We are very dichotomous in the United States," said Mark Shriver, the DNA test co-inventor. "You're either black or white. And understandably, less than 200 years ago, that meant life or death, basically — who was master, who was slave."
Shriver cautions the test does not always provide exact results always. Still, about 7,000 people have taken it, including Joseph.
Tony Frudacas, the other test co-creator and the director of DNA Print Genomics, said the company gets a lot of hate-mail these days from white supremacists who've heard about the test and don't like it.
"They might be afraid of what they might find in their own genomes," Frudacas said. "Five percent of European Americans exhibit some detectable level of African ancestry."
That means about one in 20 so-called white Americans have African genes.
Wayne Joseph's circle of friends is a racial and ethnic hodgepodge many blacks and most whites do not have — though, they didn't quite get it when he told them about his DNA test after knowing him for so many years as an African-American.
In their close knit camaraderie, where one friend man named his son after Joseph, about the only difference they ever recognized is that Joseph doesn't put mustard on his hot dogs and he won't eat the icing on his cake. Is that racial?
"We should have known right then there was something wrong with him," a friend joked.
Frudacas' test told him he has about 6 percent Native American ancestry.
"My first thought when I saw that result was that I wasn't going to really be able to watch a cowboys and Indians movie the same way again, because I was affiliated with both groups," Frudacas said.
Shriver discovered his ancestry is 10 percent African, which means that under the old one drop rule, he's more of a black man than Wayne Joseph, who may not be a black man at all.
So how will Joseph fill in the race space on his census form? It is, he says, a question of choosing between the past and the future.
"The future is my grandchildren," Joseph said. "I want them to be able to say that my grandfather made a choice, one way or the other. If I'm given that census form, I'm going to mark 'Native American.' Because no one will doubt that I'm a native of this country or that my story is uniquely an American one."
thankyou so much for that article. However, I think my friend was proving her un-black ancestry, by having family in certain countries, not any real evidence. She wasn't clear, so I'll just leave her alone if she thinks these things. I honestly think she is denying her African Ancestry, or the possibility because she equates it with something bad. Whatever the case, may be, I'm just going to leave her, thanks once again for the article
thankyou so much for that article. However, I think my friend was proving her un-black ancestry, by having family in certain countries, not any real evidence. She wasn't clear, so I'll just leave her alone if she thinks these things. I honestly think she is denying her African Ancestry, or the possibility because she equates it with something bad. Whatever the case, may be, I'm just going to leave her, thanks once again for the article
Shoot, if you are that curious just pay for a DNA test and ask if she will take it.
She might not know of African Ancestry in her family, and there is a chance she does not have it. A picture would be good.
I've seen many Puerto Ricans and Cubans claim to be part Italian
While they might be denying their african ancestry, many Puerto Ricans and Cubans are part Italian.
Quote:
Mi piace il fatto che posso facere qualcosa che questi italiani falsi non possono!
And what is that? Speak Italian?
Naw, "I like the fact that I can do whatever that these false Italians can't.
I think he is using provincial for to be though so it would be "I like the fact that I can be whomever these false Italians can't be." My Italiano is very rusty though.
Joined: 02 May 2006 {Posts: 353 } Location: Île-de-France
Posted: Thu 03 Jul 2008 18:18 Post subject:
I though he was saying "I like the fact that I can do somthing these fake italians can't." So I was asking what that might be. Then I guessed from the fact that he was writing in italian he was saying that he could speak italian and they couldn't.
I've seen many Puerto Ricans and Cubans claim to be part Italian
While they might be denying their african ancestry, many Puerto Ricans and Cubans are part Italian.
Quote:
Mi piace il fatto che posso facere qualcosa che questi italiani falsi non possono!
And what is that? Speak Italian?
Naw, "I like the fact that I can do whatever that these false Italians can't.
I think he is using provincial for to be though so it would be "I like the fact that I can be whomever these false Italians can't be." My Italiano is very rusty though.
Ah touche. You are right. Told you my Italian is rusty.
thankyou so much for that article. However, I think my friend was proving her un-black ancestry, by having family in certain countries, not any real evidence. She wasn't clear, so I'll just leave her alone if she thinks these things. I honestly think she is denying her African Ancestry, or the possibility because she equates it with something bad. Whatever the case, may be, I'm just going to leave her, thanks once again for the article
Shoot, if you are that curious just pay for a DNA test and ask if she will take it.
She might not know of African Ancestry in her family, and there is a chance she does not have it. A picture would be good.
I think it is possible for this person not to have any African ancestry. For example, many people will assume my friend has African ancestry but she doesn't as she is mixed with very dark skinned Indians. In addition, many black people do not like people to them refer as Africans
thankyou so much for that article. However, I think my friend was proving her un-black ancestry, by having family in certain countries, not any real evidence. She wasn't clear, so I'll just leave her alone if she thinks these things. I honestly think she is denying her African Ancestry, or the possibility because she equates it with something bad. Whatever the case, may be, I'm just going to leave her, thanks once again for the article
Shoot, if you are that curious just pay for a DNA test and ask if she will take it.
She might not know of African Ancestry in her family, and there is a chance she does not have it. A picture would be good.
I would like to, but I have to ask first.
I would just let it go, discovering African Admixture when you are not open to the idea in the first place will only cause more of an identity struggle. Chances are she wont even be open to the idea of taking a DNA test if there is even a chance of SSA admixture showing up.
Joined: 26 May 2007 {Posts: 394 } Location: San Antonio, Texas
Posted: Sat 05 Jul 2008 13:11 Post subject:
MisterLawyer wrote:
Quote:
I've seen many Puerto Ricans and Cubans claim to be part Italian
While they might be denying their african ancestry, many Puerto Ricans and Cubans are part Italian.
Quote:
Mi piace il fatto che posso facere qualcosa che questi italiani falsi non possono!
And what is that? Speak Italian?
I'm aware of the small Corsican influx to Puerto Rico, however, I'm not sure that the amount of Corsicans who moved to Puerto Rico added to very dense population there can really crank out those high numbers that are claiming to be part Italian. Puerto Rico also had a Chinese influx as well, yet I've never met a single Puerto Rican who claimed to be part Chinese (though I've seen a few who look like they could).
Either way, have you ever seen the movie, Hangin' With The Homeboys? There was a character, played by Nestor Sarrano, who was Puerto Rican but trying to make everyone think he was Italian. Sadly enough, I've seen alot of Vinny/Fernando's (first was his fake name, second was his real in the movie), and I think it's sad.
Posted: Sat 05 Jul 2008 15:40 Post subject: Puerto Ricans and Italians
Richard Miller wrote:
MisterLawyer wrote:
Quote:
I've seen many Puerto Ricans and Cubans claim to be part Italian
While they might be denying their african ancestry, many Puerto Ricans and Cubans are part Italian.
Quote:
Mi piace il fatto che posso facere qualcosa che questi italiani falsi non possono!
And what is that? Speak Italian?
I'm aware of the small Corsican influx to Puerto Rico, however, I'm not sure that the amount of Corsicans who moved to Puerto Rico added to very dense population there can really crank out those high numbers that are claiming to be part Italian. Puerto Rico also had a Chinese influx as well, yet I've never met a single Puerto Rican who claimed to be part Chinese (though I've seen a few who look like they could).
Either way, have you ever seen the movie, Hangin' With The Homeboys? There was a character, played by Nestor Sarrano, who was Puerto Rican but trying to make everyone think he was Italian. Sadly enough, I've seen alot of Vinny/Fernando's (first was his fake name, second was his real in the movie), and I think it's sad.
Italians are officially "white" no matter how dark they are. Puerto Ricans are currently in a racial no man's land, depending upon their numbers and reputation in a particular area.
I've seen many Puerto Ricans and Cubans claim to be part Italian
While they might be denying their african ancestry, many Puerto Ricans and Cubans are part Italian.
Quote:
Mi piace il fatto che posso facere qualcosa che questi italiani falsi non possono!
And what is that? Speak Italian?
I'm aware of the small Corsican influx to Puerto Rico, however, I'm not sure that the amount of Corsicans who moved to Puerto Rico added to very dense population there can really crank out those high numbers that are claiming to be part Italian. Puerto Rico also had a Chinese influx as well, yet I've never met a single Puerto Rican who claimed to be part Chinese (though I've seen a few who look like they could).
Either way, have you ever seen the movie, Hangin' With The Homeboys? There was a character, played by Nestor Sarrano, who was Puerto Rican but trying to make everyone think he was Italian. Sadly enough, I've seen alot of Vinny/Fernando's (first was his fake name, second was his real in the movie), and I think it's sad.
I was told by a friend that the plucked eyebrow look is rampant on the island now.
thankyou so much for that article. However, I think my friend was proving her un-black ancestry, by having family in certain countries, not any real evidence. She wasn't clear, so I'll just leave her alone if she thinks these things. I honestly think she is denying her African Ancestry, or the possibility because she equates it with something bad. Whatever the case, may be, I'm just going to leave her, thanks once again for the article
Shoot, if you are that curious just pay for a DNA test and ask if she will take it.
She might not know of African Ancestry in her family, and there is a chance she does not have it. A picture would be good.
I would like to, but I have to ask first.
I would just let it go, discovering African Admixture when you are not open to the idea in the first place will only cause more of an identity struggle. Chances are she wont even be open to the idea of taking a DNA test if there is even a chance of SSA admixture showing up.
You're right. I'm just surprised people would deny their own heritage. This is a first for me. Thanks.
Whether she denies her heritage or not is her business.
Having family members from Jamaica doesn't immediately make somebody "black". Jamaica might be an island where those of African ancestry are in the majority, but there are also many non-black people who are native to the island. My father was born in Jamaica, as well as some other family members, and they ALL look like lily-white Europeans despite some minute African ancestry.
Only she would know her family's background. If you have actual knowledge of most people on both sides of her family, then you can draw conclusions about her claims. Lots of people deny different parts of their heritage or lie about it. This is nothing new. Some people deny African ancestry and some people deny European ancestry.
Since you have no way of actually knowing that she is doing this, despite the fact that you know her personally, it is better to leave her to it.
If indeed she is denying her African heritage, that is an issue she needs to deal with in her own way. Do not condemn her or criticize her because of it.
I don't know how you identify but you should realize that self-identity is a very individual concept that differs from person to person. Culturally, she might not feel any connection with most black-identified people no matter what she looks like. I'm not trying to lecture you...I apologize if it seems that way.
All I'm saying is that based on your friend's African phenotype, she might still not identify as black for reasons known only to herself. It might seem ridiculous to you or to others but you should still try to respect her feelings, even if you disagree.
'
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