[I have to say that I am fascinated by requirement of a person to derive a feeling of specialness based on how many people claim or identify with a group/ancestry/ethnicity/label.
Never once in my life, have I ever inquired about one's NA ancestry (because, based on previous experience and application of the social microcosm theory, I'm pretty sure I know what the answer is going to be), nor have I ever intentionally asked an open-ended question that could be answered with NA ancestry. So when someone tells me that they have it, their statement of NA ancestry was 100% unsolicited. That said, do these people feel that they're special? If not, then why are they mentioning these things when no one asked them?
It's like I mentioned before, many times on this thread - actual mixed people, lying about what it is that they're mixed with. Out of all the mulattoes here, I'm willing to bet that I'm probably one of the few (probably single digits) that claims "plain' ol' backyard-barbecuin', Bud Light chuggin', NASCAR watchin', Anglo-Saxon whitey." What about everyone else here? Part Swiss? Greek? Croatian? Lithuanian?
The truth is, I know that there's alot more of "me" out there than what people care to admit - instead, they want to be one of those "rare breeds."
The funny thing about what you just said is that on my "black" side of the family, both the West Indian side and the African-American side, we always knew of the less exotic (I am guessing from your claimed perspective) non-African ethnicities in us - Scottish, Irish, Italian, "Jewish" etc. (although, you might take issue with the Portuguese claims, huh? maybe not since my "blackness" is not only from the U.S.) So, anyway, my dad's younger brother did some research and seems to have found that the "Jewish" ancestor came from Lebanon. I have no proof of that EXOTIC claim, though. However, my dad's older brother got his DNA tested and it traced back to Greece! We had never even HEARD about that one from oral family history. Yay, I'm exotic! Pfft!
What difference does it make if it's Greek or Portuguese versus German or English? (Apparently, I have all four of those in me AND MORE! ) Why does it seem so unlikely, Richard? I mean, I'm SURE some people are just claiming whatever sounds good. Maybe they know they're mixed but don't know with what. Maybe they don't even know they're mixed and are totally frontin'. But, surely, there are SOME of us who really are mixed with something that you would deem "exotic. I have only listed a few of the things I am known to have in me, based on family research. But, I guess you already zoned me out after ethnicity number 5.
Joined: 26 May 2007 {Posts: 394 } Location: San Antonio, Texas
Posted: Wed 14 May 2008 14:41 Post subject:
Whether you are "trying to be white" or not, you are still considered to be more acceptable by whites if you are successful, financially and/or academically. I've actually seen certain people in these "honory white" groups try to shake off that image, even though they've taken it on without the intent to.
I suggest this site here, that's run by Asian Americans, with a dedication to that cause:
And, by the way, as long at whites are overrepresented among the "movers and shakers" in this country - whether it's politicians, or top executives of Forune 500 companies - therein lies your way to success.
You don't have to "try to be white," as you don't bestow "honorary white status" upon yourself. As a result, how many Asians do you know who have been victims of "racial profiling"? How many situations have you heard of, where white people were locking their car doors when pulling up to a red light, because there were two Asians standing at the corner, waiting to cross the street? How many Asians do you know of, who have complained about being followed around in the electronics department at Sears? Do you think that their academic / financial successes have nothing to do with this?
If you feel so strongly that "racial" classification is something inborn, involuntary, and that any attempt to choose a self-identify is "becoming something that you are not."
anonymouse wrote:
Where have I said any of this? Please show me.
As I already quoted you above, your precise words were. "Why must the goal to become something that you are not." Please do not try to deny what everyone can see were your exact words. Please see rule 3.6.2.
anonymouse wrote:
why would one assume that everyone who is not white would choose to self identify as white if given the chance?
Straw man. First warning. Please see rule 2.3 Your next suspension will be for one month. This issue is not whether anyone should be forced to self-identify as White. Nor is it about how many people choose to self-idenitfy as White. Nor is it about anyone assuming anything. The issue is your explict written words. Your words were about "becoming something that you are not." Your words explicitly deny the right to self-identify as White.
Was Richard stating that said Africans with honorary white status SELF-identify as white? I thought he was equating education with whiteness. I read it the same way anonymouse read it. I also take issue with it, especially when my "black" family surpasses my "white" family in that regard.
At any rate, I agree with a lot of what anonymouse stated. However, I do realize that he should not have implied that Richard or African immigrants to the U.S. or anyone else should be prohibited from claiming or aspiring to claim whatever they wish.
Joined: 26 May 2007 {Posts: 394 } Location: San Antonio, Texas
Posted: Wed 14 May 2008 15:00 Post subject:
In reality, I am 1/4 Anglo-Saxon, and 1/4 German (my paternal grandfather is a WWII vet, who fought in Germany and met his wife there) - however, I stressed my Anglo-Saxon heritage convey the... modesty (for lack of a better term) of my European ancestry (though German ancestry, more than likely, would not have really distorted the "modesty" I was trying to convey - I was just trying to make sure). Now, if I were to get a DNA test - might I found out, like many others, that I have other ancestry that I don't know about? Without a doubt. I'm not sure I'd personally place alot of significance on whatever else was dug up, as any of my ancestors from a country that would eventually become members of the Warsaw Pact probably migrated to Britain or Germany, and assimilated right in.
Was Richard stating that said Africans with honorary white status SELF-identify as white? I thought he was equating education with whiteness. I read it the same way anonymouse read it. I also take issue with it, especially when my "black" family surpasses my "white" family in that regard.
Yes. I also disagree witth Richard's apparent implication (that one becomes White by becoming educated, etc.). It is true that immigrant groups in the past became accepted as White once they adopted maintream U.S. customs (such as disdaining African-Americans). And it is also true that in one case acceptance was delayed for generations because the immigrants refused to allow their children to be taught to read and write, fearing that it was a Protestant plot. Nevertheless, although a group's rejecting education is undoubtedly an obstacle to gaining mainstream acceptance or respect, advocating education is no guarantee of acceptance.
I have no problem with Anonymouse arguing against the idea that declaring oneself White makes one educated. And I agree that individuals of every ethnicity can and do become highly educated. (Whether Black teenagers accuse overachievers of äcting White"is a separate issue.) My problem is with the phrase, "becoming something that you are not". It is a grotesque caricature of the title of A.D.'s book and, as I said, reifies racialism beyond what I will tolerate.
Last edited by fwsweet on Wed 14 May 2008 16:23; edited 1 time in total
Joined: 26 May 2007 {Posts: 394 } Location: San Antonio, Texas
Posted: Wed 14 May 2008 15:57 Post subject:
OTHER wrote:
Was Richard stating that said Africans with honorary white status SELF-identify as white? I thought he was equating education with whiteness. I read it the same way anonymouse read it. I also take issue with it, especially when my "black" family surpasses my "white" family in that regard.
I've already explained how success relates to "honorary white" status, as did Frank here, when anonymouse questioned it:
fwsweet wrote:
Because historically, success in the U.S. is contingent upon acceptance into the White endogamous group. If you are asking because you really want to learn why U.S. society preserves an out-group, read my book or AD's. If you are asking because you doubt that exclusion from the White endogamous group really is financially crippling for those who are excluded, read Hacker's book.
By the way, when I speak of the differences in academic success between blacks and whites, I'm not talking about your family. Unless you intend to "play stupid" (which seems to be the popular thing to do around here when someone makes an un-PC statement), you know fully well that this isn't exactly a reflection on the rest of America as a whole.
Last edited by Richard Miller on Wed 14 May 2008 16:26; edited 2 times in total
If you weren't aware of the honorary white status of African immigrants, I don't know what to tell you.
Richard Miller wrote:
It is also well known that African immigrants are less likely to face discrimination than AA's are.
OTHER wrote:
Amadou Diallo's family might beg to differ.
I must agree with Richard. The evidence for greater acceptance by mainstream (White) socierty of immigrants of African descent (whether from Africa or the Caribbean) than for African-Americans is copious and only weakly challenged by a case of mistaken identity. See, for example, Mary C. Waters, Black Identities: West Indian Immigrant Dreams and American Realities (New York: Harvard University, 1999).
Joined: 26 May 2007 {Posts: 394 } Location: San Antonio, Texas
Posted: Wed 14 May 2008 16:02 Post subject:
fwsweet wrote:
I also disagree witth Richard's apparent implication (that one becomes White by becoming educated, etc.).
What I trying to say was that ethnic groups that are known for academic achievements achieve an HONORARY white status, i.e., looked upon more favorably than AA's and lower class Latinos by whites.
If you weren't aware of the honorary white status of African immigrants, I don't know what to tell you.
Richard Miller wrote:
It is also well known that African immigrants are less likely to face discrimination than AA's are.
Amadou Diallo's family might beg to differ.
LOL! But I bet when those cops yelled 'freeze' and he kept going for his wallet, I bet they thought he was AA (who are often stereotyped, sometimes rightly so, as often not wanting to obey a direct police command, due to it being a personal affront, weapon, drugs, etc), lol..
But I have to agree with Richard (using ancedotal evidence), that I have also noticed Africans being more 'respected' by EAs and other Americans, morso than AAs... so, race/color can't be the sole reason for the animosity/prejudice against AAs.
Lastly, a part of me sees current YOUTH culture of America and large segments of AA culture despising being just a regular, God-fearing, law-abiding, tax-paying, hard-working, American.
Was Richard stating that said Africans with honorary white status SELF-identify as white? I thought he was equating education with whiteness. I read it the same way anonymouse read it. I also take issue with it, especially when my "black" family surpasses my "white" family in that regard.
Yes. I also disagree witth Richard's apparent implication (that one becomes White by becoming educated, etc.). It is true that immigrant groups in the past became accepted as White once they adopted maintream U.S. customs (such as disdaining African-Americans). And it is also true that in one case acceptance was delayed for generations because the immigrants refused to allow their children to be taught to read and write, fearing that it was a Protestant plot. Nevertheless, although a group's rejecting education is undoubtedly an obstacle to gaining mainstream acceptance or respect, advocating education is no guarantee of acceptance.
I have no problem with Anonymouse arguing against the idea that declaring oneself White makes one educated. And I agree that individuals of every ethnicity can and do become highly educated. (Whether Black teenagers accuse overachievers of äcting White"is a separate issue.) My problem is with the phrase, "becoming something that you are not". It is a grotesque caricature of the title of A.D.'s book and, as I said, reifies racilism beyond what I will tolerate.
When you take my quote out of context you change the meaning of it. Isn't that in itself a strawman argument?
Anonymouse wrote:
Richard Miller wrote:
Diversity of Asians aside, white America feels closer to them than to AA's, which is really the only thing that matters.
Why must the goal to become something that you are not? Why is success somehow equated with "whiteness"? Not saying that there is anything wrong with being white or whiteness but is it really the pinnacle of human achievement that you seem to make it out to be?
My original statement was made in direct response to a statement from Richard where he was equating success in America with whiteness. Using his rational, if you strive to become successful then you are aspiring to be white. He also says that only those deemed "honorary whites" are accepted by "white America" which is the only thing that really matters.
Well I just do not agree with him. You can still be successful and educated and accepted by "white America" while not having to suppress and/or change who you are.
Joined: 26 May 2007 {Posts: 394 } Location: San Antonio, Texas
Posted: Wed 14 May 2008 16:37 Post subject:
You keep saying things like this:
anonymouse wrote:
My original statement was made in direct response to a statement from Richard where he was equating success in America with whiteness. Using his rational, if you strive to become successful then you are aspiring to be white.
When I already said this:
Richard Miller wrote:
Whether you are "trying to be white" or not, you are still considered to be more acceptable by whites if you are successful, financially and/or academically. I've actually seen certain people in these "honory white" groups try to shake off that image, even though they've taken it on without the intent to.
I suggest this site here, that's run by Asian Americans, with a dedication to that cause:
...You don't have to "try to be white," as you don't bestow "honorary white status" upon yourself. As a result, how many Asians do you know who have been victims of "racial profiling"? How many situations have you heard of, where white people were locking their car doors when pulling up to a red light, because there were two Asians standing at the corner, waiting to cross the street? How many Asians do you know of, who have complained about being followed around in the electronics department at Sears? Do you think that their academic / financial successes have nothing to do with this?
You're trying so hard to put words into other people's mouths yourself, in this case, you seemed to be dedicated to making me out to be saying that others are "trying to be white" - when my quote above is cleary states the contrary.
P.S.; to Clarify the first paragraph of my second quote, I mean ethnic groups known for success in those areas - I'm sure that famous rap artists and black professional athletes wouldn't be seen as equals by whites of equal financial worth.
Was Richard stating that said Africans with honorary white status SELF-identify as white? I thought he was equating education with whiteness. I read it the same way anonymouse read it. I also take issue with it, especially when my "black" family surpasses my "white" family in that regard.
I've already explained how success relates to "honorary white" status, as did Frank here, when anonymouse questioned it:
fwsweet wrote:
Because historically, success in the U.S. is contingent upon acceptance into the White endogamous group. If you are asking because you really want to learn why U.S. society preserves an out-group, read my book or AD's. If you are asking because you doubt that exclusion from the White endogamous group really is financially crippling for those who are excluded, read Hacker's book.
By the way, when I speak of the differences in academic success between blacks and whites, I'm not talking about your family. Unless you intend to "play stupid" (which seems to be the popular thing to do around here when someone makes an un-PC statement), you know fully well that this isn't exactly a reflection on the rest of America as a whole.
I have no intention of playing stupid and I know you were not referring specifically to my family. I am not the type to balk at un-PC statements. I believe that political correctness has set our country back decades in "race" relations because of all the things we are NOT supposed to talk about. I just happen to know plenty of "whites" with no college degree and plenty of "blacks" with college degrees and beyond. I am not only referring to my family, now, but friends, neighbors, and strangers I've encountered, as well. "White" and "college-educated" are not synonymous nor anything near synonymous, nor are "black" and "not college-educated". The reality that "blacks" are less likely to attend and graduate from college than "whites" does not, in my opinion, give us free reign to indulge in stereotypes. Did I become more "white" when I obtained my Bachelor's degree? From an HBCU?
If you weren't aware of the honorary white status of African immigrants, I don't know what to tell you.
Richard Miller wrote:
It is also well known that African immigrants are less likely to face discrimination than AA's are.
OTHER wrote:
Amadou Diallo's family might beg to differ.
I must agree with Richard. The evidence for greater acceptance by mainstream (White) socierty of immigrants of African descent (whether from Africa or the Caribbean) than for African-Americans is copious and only weakly challenged by a case of mistaken identity. See, for example, Mary C. Waters, Black Identities: West Indian Immigrant Dreams and American Realities (New York: Harvard University, 1999).
The Amadou Diallo case is well-known, but how often does this "mistaken identity" occur on a scale less noticeable than being killed by cops?
My original statement was made in direct response to a statement from Richard where he was equating success in America with whiteness. Using his rational, if you strive to become successful then you are aspiring to be white.
When I already said this:
Richard Miller wrote:
You don't have to "try to be white," as you don't bestow "honorary white status" upon yourself. As a result, how many Asians do you know who have been victims of "racial profiling"? How many situations have you heard of, where white people were locking their car doors when pulling up to a red light, because there were two Asians standing at the corner, waiting to cross the street? How many Asians do you know of, who have complained about being followed around in the electronics department at Sears? Do you think that their academic / financial successes have nothing to do with this?
You're trying so hard to put words into other people's mouths yourself, in this case, you seemed to be dedicated to making me out to be saying that others are "trying to be white" - when my quote above is cleary states the contrary.
How can I put words in your mouth that you have already uttered? I am not using a partial quote but a direct quote. Your intent and viewpoint were made quite clear in that original post.
now with regard to your next statement
Richard Miller wrote:
You don't have to "try to be white," as you don't bestow "honorary white status" upon yourself. As a result, how many Asians do you know who have been victims of "racial profiling"? How many situations have you heard of, where white people were locking their car doors when pulling up to a red light, because there were two Asians standing at the corner, waiting to cross the street? How many Asians do you know of, who have complained about being followed around in the electronics department at Sears? Do you think that their academic / financial successes have nothing to do with this?
I have already stated that many like to tout Asians as the model minority and frequently use the examples that you have just stated. What do these examples prove? Only that discrimination targets different ethic groups differently. Try being an Asian male actor and getting a part as a heartthrob and/or a leading man: those characters are far and few between.
I also disagree witth Richard's apparent implication (that one becomes White by becoming educated, etc.).
What I trying to say was that ethnic groups that are known for academic achievements achieve an HONORARY white status, i.e., looked upon more favorably than AA's and lower class Latinos by whites.
Then, do you agree that this same "HONORARY white status" is also bestowed upon college-educated "AA's and lower class Latinos"? Perhaps it is not an "HONORARY white status". Perhaps it is just the inherent benefits of being educated. Just a thought.
My original statement was made in direct response to a statement from Richard where he was equating success in America with whiteness. Using his rational, if you strive to become successful then you are aspiring to be white.
When I already said this:
Richard Miller wrote:
You don't have to "try to be white," as you don't bestow "honorary white status" upon yourself. As a result, how many Asians do you know who have been victims of "racial profiling"? How many situations have you heard of, where white people were locking their car doors when pulling up to a red light, because there were two Asians standing at the corner, waiting to cross the street? How many Asians do you know of, who have complained about being followed around in the electronics department at Sears? Do you think that their academic / financial successes have nothing to do with this?
You're trying so hard to put words into other people's mouths yourself, in this case, you seemed to be dedicated to making me out to be saying that others are "trying to be white" - when my quote above is cleary states the contrary.
How can I put words in your mouth that you have already uttered? I am not using a partial quote but a direct quote. Your intent and viewpoint were made quite clear in that original post.
now with regard to your next statement
Richard Miller wrote:
You don't have to "try to be white," as you don't bestow "honorary white status" upon yourself. As a result, how many Asians do you know who have been victims of "racial profiling"? How many situations have you heard of, where white people were locking their car doors when pulling up to a red light, because there were two Asians standing at the corner, waiting to cross the street? How many Asians do you know of, who have complained about being followed around in the electronics department at Sears? Do you think that their academic / financial successes have nothing to do with this?
I have already stated that many like to tout Asians as the model minority and frequently use the examples that you have just stated. What do these examples prove? Only that discrimination targets different ethic groups differently. Try being an Asian male actor and getting a part as a heartthrob and/or a leading man: those characters are far and few between.
Again. Stereotypes. I have actually felt BAD for some Vietnamese "C" students I have had in college-level Anatomy & Physiology and Microbiology classes. How hard must it be for them to have that "positive" stereotype hanging over their head while they are struggling to do their best to be average? (Nothing wrong with average!) I think "positive" stereotypes can be just as mean and damaging as negative ones.
Joined: 26 May 2007 {Posts: 394 } Location: San Antonio, Texas
Posted: Wed 14 May 2008 17:20 Post subject:
OTHER wrote:
Did I become more "white" when I obtained my Bachelor's degree? From an HBCU?
I don't think I made myself clear earlier.
Bottom line, honorary white status is generally not bestowed upon individuals - it's generally bestowed upon ethnic groups that are characterized by academic and/or financial achievment/success. I have a Bachelors as well, and start grad school in two weeks. I don't consider myself "honorary white" - and, unless mulattoes as a whole get that status (something I could give two sh**s about), we won't have it as individuals.
Joined: 26 May 2007 {Posts: 394 } Location: San Antonio, Texas
Posted: Wed 14 May 2008 17:38 Post subject:
OTHER wrote:
Then, do you agree that this same "HONORARY white status" is also bestowed upon college-educated "AA's and lower class Latinos"? Perhaps it is not an "HONORARY white status". Perhaps it is just the inherent benefits of being educated. Just a thought.
This statement actually supports my argument. If what you're saying is the case indeed, why would it take post-secondary education to achieve the status that whites are already born with?
Last edited by Richard Miller on Wed 14 May 2008 17:45; edited 1 time in total
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However, my dad's 
) Why does it seem so unlikely, Richard? I mean, I'm SURE some people are just claiming whatever sounds good. Maybe they know they're mixed but don't know with what. Maybe they don't even know they're mixed and are totally frontin'. But, surely, there are SOME of us who really are mixed with something that you would deem "exotic. I have only listed a few of the things I am known to have in me, based on family research. But, I guess you already zoned me out after ethnicity number 5. 
