Joined: 10 Mar 2006 {Posts: 235 } Location: Atlanta
Posted: Fri 16 Jun 2006 00:47 Post subject: A Victorian view of "coloured" people
For reasons connected with my own work, I've been reading Victorian writings on the subject of race in the West Indies (well, we don't have a Caribbean forum so I'm putting this here). I came across a passage in Charles Kingsley's At Last: A Christmas in the West Indies which might be of interest to readers here. After a discussion of the "Negro" which are, to say the least, annoyingly patronising when it isn't disgustingly racist, he then says of the mixed population of Trinidad:
Quote:
As for the coloured population -- especially the educated and civilised coloured population of the towns -- they stand to us in an altogether different relation. They claim to be, and are, our kinsfolk, on another ground than that of common humanity. We are bound to them by a tie more sacred, I had almost said more stern, than we are to the mere Negro. They claim, and justly, to be considered as our kinsfolk and equals; and I believe, from what I have seen of them, that they will prove themselves such, whenever they are treated as they are in Trinidad. What faults some of them have proceed mainly from a not dishonourable ambition, mixed with uncertainty of their own position. Let them be made to feel that they are now not a class; to forget, if possible, that they ever were one.
Works for me. There are three curious differences between Brit and US "racial" perception:
First, is that the former is appearance-based while the latter is ancestry-based. Although Brits in general can be just as "racist" as Americans, Brits see someone like Gregory Howard Williams as White (because of his appearance) while Americans see him as Black because of his claimed ancestry.
Second, is that, while Americans and Brits vary among themselves in just how African you must look to be perceived as "looking black," Brits in general are not a strict as Americans in labeling someone Black due to trivial traits. Adam Clayon Powell, for instance, and even Hale Berry, are often described as "white-looking" by Brits, but not by Americans.
Finally, there is no endogamous color line in Britain. The BWI out-marriage rate in England is ten times the US Black out-marriage rate.
All three factors have apparently been in place for some time. British colonists in the West Indies freely intermarried with colonists of slight African ancestry, and their children were accepted into White society (Audubon, Hamilton, Yulee, etc.). The custom was noted by many visitors, including Anthony Trollope in his travelogue The West Indies and the Spanish Main (1860). On pages 151-152, he notes the humor in the Barbadian law that only Whites could run for public office, coupled with the clearly mixed appearance of the ruling class. He writes, "How it is decided whether a man be white or not, I did not hear."
In any event, I would be happy to set up a BWI forum if anyone would volunteer to moderate it.
May I suggest a generic Caribbean forum as opposed to a strictly BWI forum. We could incorporate information from other parts of the Caribbean, including the Spanish Caribbean.
Joined: 10 Mar 2006 {Posts: 235 } Location: Atlanta
Posted: Fri 16 Jun 2006 18:28 Post subject:
G-Man wrote:
May I suggest a generic Caribbean forum as opposed to a strictly BWI forum. We could incorporate information from other parts of the Caribbean, including the Spanish Caribbean.
Joined: 10 Mar 2006 {Posts: 235 } Location: Atlanta
Posted: Fri 16 Jun 2006 18:31 Post subject:
fwsweet wrote:
G-Man wrote:
Mmm. Maybe there should be a Caribbean forum.
Works for me. There are three curious differences between Brit and US "racial" perception:
First, is that the former is appearance-based while the latter is ancestry-based. Although Brits in general can be just as "racist" as Americans, Brits see someone like Gregory Howard Williams as White (because of his appearance) while Americans see him as Black because of his claimed ancestry.
Second, is that, while Americans and Brits vary among themselves in just how African you must look to be perceived as "looking black," Brits in general are not a strict as Americans in labeling someone Black due to trivial traits. Adam Clayon Powell, for instance, and even Hale Berry, are often described as "white-looking" by Brits, but not by Americans.
Finally, there is no endogamous color line in Britain. The BWI out-marriage rate in England is ten times the US Black out-marriage rate.
All three factors have apparently been in place for some time. British colonists in the West Indies freely intermarried with colonists of slight African ancestry, and their children were accepted into White society (Audubon, Hamilton, Yulee, etc.). The custom was noted by many visitors, including Anthony Trollope in his travelogue The West Indies and the Spanish Main (1860). On pages 151-152, he notes the humor in the Barbadian law that only Whites could run for public office, coupled with the clearly mixed appearance of the ruling class. He writes, "How it is decided whether a man be white or not, I did not hear."
In any event, I would be happy to set up a BWI forum if anyone would volunteer to moderate it.
Trollope, like Kingsley, believed that the coloured population was the seed of a future race that would be the natural rulers of the West Indies. He then adds:
Quote:
I am here speaking of the general ascendency (sic), not of the political power of these coloured races. It may be that after all we shall still have to send out some white Governor with a white aide-de-camp and a white private secretary – some three or four unfortunate white men to support the dignity of the throne of Queen Victoria’s great-grandchild’s grandchild.
May I suggest a generic Caribbean forum as opposed to a strictly BWI forum. We could incorporate information from other parts of the Caribbean, including the Spanish Caribbean.
Joined: 04 May 2005 {Posts: 2021 } Location: santiago, chile
Posted: Fri 16 Jun 2006 19:50 Post subject: suggestion
Hi,
May I suggest something?
The term Caribbean it is also sort of bad defined. For example, are the countries of North East South America, Central America and Mexico also caribbean? Why to include Belize and exclude Suriname?
I proposse the following from my point of view. There are three historical and cultural regions in the Americas which are the following:
Anglo America: U.S. and Canada which are English speaking developed societies.
Latin America: Which includes Hispanic America (Spanish speaking countries of the Americas and the Caribbean), Brazil and Haiti.
West Indies (or by other name): Which include all the English, Dutch and Frech Caribbean countries IN the Caribbean and AROUND the Caribbean, like Jamaica, Trinidad and Tobago, Belize, Suriname, Guyana, Barbados, Jamaica, Belize, and any other country I miss.
I'd be willing to give it a try. Though, because I'm in and out over the summer, I'm not 100 percent sure I could give it due attention.
Okay. Let me set up the forum. I guess that we shall call it "Caribbean Topics," or some such thing. We can always change the title later.
Regarding whether it should include the Spanish Caribbean, I do not think this is a serious concern. I would think that members initiating topics focusing on the Caribbean basin will automatically post into the new forum, whether the topic is about English-, Spanish-, French-, or Dutch-speaking islands. And those focusing on Spanish culture will continue to post into "Latin America." Thanks to Jaime's help, the new search engine seems to be working fine, and Google's search is getting much better (48 hits for "Brazil," now). So searching should resolve any future doubts.
Regarding whether the Guyanas are part of the Caribbean (or of the West Indies, for that matter), Mary C. Waters, Black Identities: West Indian Immigrant Dreams and American Realities (New York: Harvard University, 1999) spends most of a chapter on this issue alone. Her take is the same as mine: It depends on what specific issue is being focused on. Culture would say "yes." Ecology would say "no." So, again, I would leave it up to the member doing the posting.
Joined: 10 Mar 2006 {Posts: 235 } Location: Atlanta
Posted: Sat 17 Jun 2006 15:57 Post subject:
fwsweet wrote:
Fledgist wrote:
I'd be willing to give it a try. Though, because I'm in and out over the summer, I'm not 100 percent sure I could give it due attention.
Okay. Let me set up the forum. I guess that we shall call it "Caribbean Topics," or some such thing. We can always change the title later.
Regarding whether it should include the Spanish Caribbean, I do not think this is a serious concern. I would think that members initiating topics focusing on the Caribbean basin will automatically post into the new forum, whether the topic is about English-, Spanish-, French-, or Dutch-speaking islands. And those focusing on Spanish culture will continue to post into "Latin America." Thanks to Jaime's help, the new search engine seems to be working fine, and Google's search is getting much better (48 hits for "Brazil," now). So searching should resolve any future doubts.
Regarding whether the Guyanas are part of the Caribbean (or of the West Indies, for that matter), Mary C. Waters, Black Identities: West Indian Immigrant Dreams and American Realities (New York: Harvard University, 1999) spends most of a chapter on this issue alone. Her take is the same as mine: It depends on what specific issue is being focused on. Culture would say "yes." Ecology would say "no." So, again, I would leave it up to the member doing the posting.
Thanks, Frank. I'll do my best. I'd say that the Guianas/Guyanas were culturally and politically part of the Caribbean, even though geographically South American.
'
FAQ
Search
Register
Log in
